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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-09-2015
Quote:by the time a Roman got to Alchester
Paulinus could have fallen back on Alchester, left the refugees there, picked up reinforcements and then (after one of his 'delays') advanced again to the headwaters of the Bulbourne and fought the battle somewhere around Tring.
I still like the idea of Alchester being the home of the 20th legion veteran detachment - although they could have marched to join Paulinus at St Albans on his initial advance south.
One problem with the Akeman Str route - the Britons had little in that direction they wanted, and after destroying their main objectives in Colchester and London they might not have been inclined to march in the opposite direction to home! Paulinus could have found himself sitting tight at Alchester or Tring waiting for a battle that never happened...
(edit - I see Renatus has just said much the same as my first point!)
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-09-2015
Nathan Ross wrote:
I still like the idea of Alchester being the home of the 20th legion veteran detachment - although they could have marched to join Paulinus at St Albans on his initial advance south.
As the 20th itself may have been attached to Usk, Monmouth, Clyro, Abergavenny, Brecon etc. garrisoning the Silures and the Ordovices, who had only been recently defeated, Kingsholme at Gloucester was possibly available for the latest batch of veterans of the 20th.
As a strategy the settlement of the earlier veterans at Colchester had been a great success in keeping the local tribes in check until the recent events.
By having the latest veterans of the 20th settled at Gloucester as well, those local tribes would also have been kept in check.
If this had been successful it would have been an excellent way to free up the army to continue with expansion rather than policing and slowly settle the country with Romans.
If the veterans had been based at Gloucester they could have marched to Cirencester then along Akeman Street to liaise with SP in 3 days.
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-09-2015
Quote:Going back as far as Page 33, Deryk suggested quite a reasonable site for the battle there.
He did. This is the steep-sided defile directly south-west of Tring, centred on the village of Hanghill. The site still looks promising, although I'd say some of the problems with it are still outstanding, and you haven't fully answered, I think, your own question (of 2 years ago!) on the same page - why would the Britons be heading in that direction?
It's also quite a risky site - the Roman camp would have to be placed up on the ridge above the valley, with a narrow descent, which would made retreat very difficult if things went badly. There seems to be little water up on the ridge, and it's vulnerable to flanking attacks by enemies moving due west off Akeman Street around Berkhamsted. The valley is very tight for ten thousand men, and it does seem a potential trap for Paulinus to get stuck in. I know I'm repeating points i made before, but they do still bear considering, I think!
Quote:If the veterans had been based at Gloucester they could have marched to Cirencester then along Akeman Street
Yes, either way they'd be passing through Alchester. I could imagine St Albans as a good rendezvous point for troops coming from the west along Akeman and the north-west down Watling; perhaps Paulinus established his headquarters there while he planned his next move? Bearing in mind the lack of apparent Romanisation in the town, there must have been some reason for the rebels to attack the place.
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 03-09-2015
Quote:I still like the idea of Alchester being the home of the 20th legion veteran detachmentThis is something that has passed me by. Is there evidence to indicate a connection between Alchester and the 20th?
Quote:One problem with the Akeman Str route - the Britons had little in that direction they wanted, and after destroying their main objectives in Colchester and London they might not have been inclined to march in the opposite direction to home! Paulinus could have found himself sitting tight at Alchester or Tring waiting for a battle that never happened...There are a number of possibilities. After sacking St Albans, the rebels may have intended to continue their advance against tribes perceived to be pro-Roman, e.g., the Dobunni and/or the Atrebates. From St Albans, they could have proceeded along Akeman Street to confront the Dobunni or diverted on to the Icknield Way at Tring to approach the lands of the Atrebates. Alternatively, if they had intended to return home via Watling Street and the Icknield Way and Suetonius was camped at Tring, they may have felt that they could not leave a substantial Roman force in their rear and, confident after their earlier successes, decided to eliminate it.
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 03-09-2015
Quote:you haven't fully answered, I think, your own question (of 2 years ago!) on the same page - why would the Britons be heading in that direction?Your post and mine crossed with each other but, as far as I recall, I have offered the same explanations before.
Quote:perhaps Paulinus established his headquarters there while he planned his next move? Bearing in mind the lack of apparent Romanisation in the town, there must have been some reason for the rebels to attack the place.An interesting idea, although he must have got out pretty quickly when he realised that the rebels were approaching: the withdrawal from London writ small, perhaps. Another explanation arises from the towns status as a municipium. This is likely to have convinced the rebels that the inhabitants were pro-Roman and that, accordingly, they deserved to be punished.
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-09-2015
Quote:Is there evidence to indicate a connection between Alchester and the 20th?
Strangely, I thought it was your idea! It was probably a suggestion buried somewhere in the back pages of this thread... Maybe just a process of elimination: if Alchester was occupied at this time, the 20th might be the best candidates for the garrison.
Quote:as far as I recall, I have offered the same explanations before.
You did, although I was never too keen on the idea of the rebels going off to attack other 'pro-Roman' Britons. It's perfectly plausible, but they could more easily have taken the westward route via Staines against Cogidubnus if that was their intention.
Quote:if they had intended to return home via Watling Street and the Icknield Way... they may have felt that they could not leave a substantial Roman force in their rear.
I like this idea better though!
The site at Tring is about 23 miles from Alchester on Akeman Street - a good day's march for either a Roman force going to reinforce Paulinus, or Paulinus himself returning east to a battle site. It's about 15 miles from St Albans in the other direction, a not-impossible distance for the rebel army to cover in a day and then camp in the vicinity of Tring itself.
The valley site is about 800 metres wide, I estimate, at the best point for the Roman position. From there, it's around 1.4 kilometers, or just under a mile, to the line of Akeman Street at the western edge of Tring, where the Britons could have placed their wagons. If the Roman camp was up on the ridge around Chivery, it would about the same distance behind their position.
The site itself appears to fit Tacitus's description perfectly - a steep-sided defile with woods to the rear (and on both sides, in fact) and a plain in front. If we can assume that the rebel force at St Albans had some reason (or a combination of them?) for moving up the Bulbourne valley towards Tring, the battle could well have happened here.
However, I'm still wary of the possibilities of an outflanking move from the east and north-east, leaving the Romans stuck in their defile with no route of retreat. Although I recall your good point about Paulinus ensuring there were no enemies to his rear, I still think that such a famously clever and cautious general may not have wanted to risk having his force surrounded and trapped.
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-10-2015
Here, for anyone interested, is another version of the Tring battle site map, with suggested positions for the Roman line and camp, and the wagons (black) and warriors (blue) of the Britons. I've also shown two potential outflanking routes the Britons can take to move around behind Paulinus's position:
[attachment=11960]TringBattlemap.jpg[/attachment]
The Britons approach from the south-east, along Akeman Street in the top right corner of the map, and would have to follow the road as it bends west in order to face the Romans in the defile. Any blocking force that Paulinus placed in the ridges south-west of Wigginton to guard against approaches from that direction would not be able to play a part in the main battle.
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
Nathan Ross stated a few years ago:
SP may have gone to London to rescue any Roman citizens
Therefore it follows on that logic that SP left London once he realised how serious the situation with refugees (as stated) and then went to Verulamium to rescue Roman citizens.
Possibly his original intention was to turn west along Akeman Street to meet up with his troops in / from the militarised zone but had for various reasons to camp just outside Tring and face the rebels
Renatus wrote:
......if they had intended to return home via Watling Street and the Icknield Way and Suetonius was camped at Tring, they may have felt that they could not leave a substantial Roman force in their rear and, confident after their earlier successes, decided to eliminate it.
I totally agree with this. They could not return home leaving SP and an increasingly large army in their rear.
Also it was an ideal time to defeat a foe that was comparatively small and loaded down with refugees.
Nathan Ross wrote:
If we can assume that the rebel force at St Albans had some reason (or a combination of them?) for moving up the Bulbourne valley towards Tring, the battle could well have happened here.
Obviously I agree with this
There are a number of options for this site however
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
Here is another option of the Tring Site:
[attachment=11962]TRINGSITE2.jpg[/attachment]
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
[attachment=11963]TRINGSITE2.gif[/attachment]
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
[attachment=11965]TRINGBATTLESITE.jpg[/attachment]
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
Here is a different view of the Tring site:
[map]TRING SITE 2.jpg[/map]
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
There are a number of options:
[attachment=11967]TRING1100315.jpg[/attachment]
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 03-10-2015
[attachment=11968]TRINGBATTLESITE.jpg[/attachment]
Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 03-10-2015
Quote:Strangely, I thought it was your idea! It was probably a suggestion buried somewhere in the back pages of this thread... Maybe just a process of elimination: if Alchester was occupied at this time, the 20th might be the best candidates for the garrison.Not me, guv! I had never heard of the place until you mentioned it or, if it has been referred to here, it had not registered.
Quote:You did, although I was never too keen on the idea of the rebels going off to attack other 'pro-Roman' Britons. It's perfectly plausible, but they could more easily have taken the westward route via Staines against Cogidubnus if that was their intention.That was my original idea but I then though of how to bring St Albans into the equation. If the rebels decided to attack it first for its Roman sympathies, their route west would probably be along Akeman Street. If they turned back to follow the route via Staines, they would being going through land that they had already devastated. Going along Akeman Street, they could either turn down the Icknield Way or carry on to attack the Dobunni and then turn down the Fosse Way.