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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Printable Version

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Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - John1 - 02-17-2012

so Paulinus' band, are advancing to contact from Mona, in a manner that allows him to pop down to London, so it's probable/almost certain that his route was along Watling Street. He is expecting the II to join him, not the other way around, so Watling Street or west of Watling Street seems to be a common sense bet. His main force is also acting as a blocking force to stop the Brits advancing up to the newly conquered territory/ Druidic sites, policed only by the remains of the XXth. To not provide the block would leave his recent conquest irrelevant the re-taking of these territories may have been a potential goal of the British forces. Additionally depending on what he knows he he may be picking up Cerealis and his surviving cavalry (on the basis that Cerealis kept his job/life) who maybe on a tactical retreat westwards from Longthorpe (along the Nene).

So...Watling Street/Blocking Force/Nene/the II moving up, triangulate those and dammit Church Stowe again!!!! I am soooo sorry, I lost it for a moment, here's the towel back.....must go and get medication and have a lie down...... :oops:


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 02-17-2012

Quote:The problem with the south-east route is that taking it would have separated Paulinus even further from any hope of reinforcement.
I'm not sure whether there was a bridge at London in AD61, or it was still a ferry crossing. Either way, Paulinus would surely have destroyed the crossing point while evacuating the city, leaving the Thames as a major obstacle. For the Iceni to follow him - considering they were moving with a large number of carts and a multitude of noncombatents, they would have to travel twenty miles west along the Portway to the bridge (or ford, perhaps) at Staines, cross over and double back around. Why do that, when the whole Thames valley lay open and undefended before them?

Paulinus could have gone south across the river, as Steven suggested above, to convey the civilian refugees to safety - but Tacitus is clear that they had to keep up with his march, which implies there was no major river obstacle between them and the enemy.


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - John1 - 02-17-2012

so Paulinus' band, are advancing to contact from Mona, in a manner that allows him to pop down to London, so it's probable/almost certain that his route was along Watling Street. He is expecting the II to join him, not the other way around, so Watling Street or west of Watling Street seems to be a common sense bet. Thus using the bulk of his force to screen the smaller units of the XX left behind to police the new conquest. Additionally depending on what he knows he he may be picking up Cerealis and his surviving cavalry (on the basis that Cerealis kept his job/life) who maybe on a tactical retreat westwards from Longthorpe (along the Nene). Watling Street/screening/Nene/the II moving up, triangulate those and dammit Church Stowe again!!!! I am soooo sorry, I lost it for a moment, here's the towel back.....must go and get medication and have a lie down...... :oops:


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Vindex - 02-18-2012

I have always considered that tactically, Paulinus may have considered the following:

a. Advance down Watling Street with dispatches to th XIV and XX telling them where he was going and where they could possibly intercept him on their march to join him.

b. En route, recce possible locations to join battle which would be to his force's advantage and disadvantage the Britons and their way of fighting.

c. Having decided that Londinium was not a place he would choose to fight, withdraw to the nearest recce'd location and wait, not wanting to be caught in marching order.


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 02-18-2012

Quote:
Renatus post=307097 Wrote:The problem with the south-east route is that taking it would have separated Paulinus even further from any hope of reinforcement.
I'm not sure whether there was a bridge at London in AD61, or it was still a ferry crossing. Either way, Paulinus would surely have destroyed the crossing point while evacuating the city, leaving the Thames as a major obstacle. For the Iceni to follow him - considering they were moving with a large number of carts and a multitude of noncombatents, they would have to travel twenty miles west along the Portway to the bridge (or ford, perhaps) at Staines, cross over and double back around. Why do that, when the whole Thames valley lay open and undefended before them?

Paulinus could have gone south across the river, as Steven suggested above, to convey the civilian refugees to safety - but Tacitus is clear that they had to keep up with his march, which implies there was no major river obstacle between them and the enemy.
I agree. If Paulinus had gone south, he would have destroyed any bridge behind him (even, perhaps, detaching a small force to destroy any other nearby bridge that the rebels might use) and put the river between him and the enemy. They almost certainly would not have troubled to travel twenty miles in order to double back and follow him. The clear implication that both forces were in the same side of the Thames almost guarantees that Paulinus did not go south.


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - 66kbm - 02-18-2012

Hi all
At the risk of being shot down in flames...here goes..Paulinus as far as i am aware did not know that Legio II AVG was not going to join his forces...or did he?
I know that he had requested thier presence and we know that the Legion did not respond, but when did he know this and did this affect his battle plan...or did it?
I think Legio II AVG played a major role in this battles location and outcome merely by the fact that they never materialised/turned up to fight, but for what reasons?
Kevin


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 02-18-2012

Quote:I have always considered that tactically, Paulinus may have considered the following:
Hmm, I'm experiencing a strange sense of Deja Vu...! (or are you just reminding us to stop repeating ourselves, Moi? :wink: )

Quote:I think Legio II AVG played a major role in this battles location and outcome merely by the fact that they never materialised/turned up to fight, but for what reasons?
I think you could be right. As I said above somewhere, Poenius Postumus was in a difficult position - he was only the Praefectus Castrorum, not a legate, and a wrong move could have cost him his career (in the event, of course, it cost him his life!). It's commonly believed that II Augusta failed to leave their base - whether Gloucester, Exeter or somewhere else. But all Tacitus said is that Postumus 'failed to obey an order'. So he could have been moving, but just not quickly enough. Or perhaps he was confused by the contradictory orders coming from Paulinus as he feinted around trying to find a good spot for the battle, and decided that discretion was the better part of valour?

Either way, Paulinus had some reason to delay the battle, and as he was running short of supplies and the enemy were 'pressing upon him', it must have been a good one. Waiting for II Augusta may have been that reason. We don't know when he learned that they weren't going to show up, but his delaying tactics after leaving London implies there was still a possibility that they might reach him in time.


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 02-18-2012

Quote:As I said above somewhere, Poenius Postumus was in a difficult position - he was only the Praefectus Castrorum, not a legate, and a wrong move could have cost him his career (in the event, of course, it cost him his life!).
Which raises the question to which we will never know the answer: Why was he in that position? Where were the legate and the tribunus laticlavius?


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - 66kbm - 02-18-2012

Going off of subject...my fault...Legio II AVG...Move back to battle locations
Footnote
Maybee Leg II AVG were a bit drunk on the local "CIDER/MEAD" and couldnt make it.....its only a joke before someone rips me me apart
Kevin


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Vindex - 02-18-2012

Quote: Hmm, I'm experiencing a strange sense of Deja Vu...!

Well spotted Nathan...I'm glad someone is paying attention :mrgreen:

I just got the impression we were back to page one of the discussion and as only Byron agreed with me I thought I'd try again. :wink:

Quote:or are you just reminding us to stop repeating ourselves, Moi? :wink: )

Who, me? <innocent look>


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - 66kbm - 02-18-2012

Metal Detectors..........now if everyone clubbed together i'm sure we could find/eliminate favourable sites, especially if the amount of dead was accurate. Look at Kalkries...it was a British Army Officer casually metal detecting that started to find gear back in the 90's i think.There must be enormouse amounts of gear in the ground at that battle site.

Not all metal detectorists are heritage stealers....but who owns the land....are they?
Kevin


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Vindex - 02-18-2012

Quote:Metal Detectors..........now if everyone clubbed together i'm sure we could find/eliminate favourable sites, especially if the amount of dead was accurate. Look at Kalkries...it was a British Army Officer casually metal detecting that started to find gear back in the 90's i think.There must be enormouse amounts of gear in the ground at that battle site.

Not all metal detectorists are heritage stealers....but who owns the land....are they?
Kevin

Hmmm...as I'm an archaeologist, you and I may be about to fall out Kevin. Confusedad:

Without going off topic TOO much, metal detectors have their place but it is the context in which something is found which can be of greatest importance and digging to find the "treasure" ruins that forever...

And discussing the term "land owner" is one of those moral responsibility arguments it is just too late in the evening (for me anyway) to debate.

I'm off to bed before I find my soap box.


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - 66kbm - 02-18-2012

If we don't dig it...we don't find it...One has to trust in the men with local knowledge and detector technology....we aint all a**holes.
Just a suggestion....dont mean to offend
Kevin


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Vindex - 02-18-2012

I don't mean to offend either but it is never as simple as just excavating the metal detected find. Anyway - straying off topic and I will try to keep my professional opinion to myself.

This battle site is just another of those great unknowns which history throws at us and we should bear in mind the reality of the Teutoburg forest. The alleged finding of the site of Varus' legions' massacre was a long way from the scholastic opinion of where it should be if I remember.


Re: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - John1 - 02-18-2012

A metal detector survey was done on the Cuttle Mill/Paulerpury site under the guidance of the Battlefields Trust (the same guys who relocated the Battle of Bosworth last year)but nothing of consequence was found and the bodies turned out to be 7th-8th century (C14). To me that is enough to strike that site off the list, although the topo is such a poor fit it should probably never have been nominated, it was the one used for "Battlefield Britain"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeAeKD8B5YE

I believe, but don't know, that Webster and then others have done something similar at Mancetter in the 50 years that the site has been nominated, there was even some "proper" archaeology done at the time. definitely repeating myself with this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmLe35rcsFg

So it seems obvious that when a site is nominated a general sweep of the area should be done. I suspect local clubs/individuals already have landowners permission on most of the sites already nominated but the PAS isn't reporting anything significant on any of them. Although Church Stowe is tricky due to key areas being scheduled, but that's ok 'cos I've given up on Church Stowe anyway.

I've heard some suggestions that some the nominated sites are correct in spite of no finds (Mancetter, Cuttle Mill, Arbury Banks) due to the site having been "picked clean", a suggestion repeated by Miranda Aldhouse-Green on the "In Our Time" show , but that just doesn't seem a very strong position given what we know from the German sites.

So detectors at dawn somewhere near Dunstable anyone?