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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Printable Version

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Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - davidscott - 09-10-2013

Sorry if I am repeating a previous blog, but I have only got to P25 today.
You say 2 towns. Colchester and ?. T says a Civitas (Camolodum) and a camp?
Londinium or Verulamium? Which one? And what of the other please?


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Theoderic - 09-10-2013

davidscotti wrote:

Sorry if I am repeating a previous blog, but I have only got to P25 today.
You say 2 towns. Colchester and ?. T says a Civitas (Camolodunum) and a camp?
Londinium or Verulamium? Which one? And what of the other please?


Could you be a bit more specific please?

Kind Regards - Deryk


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 09-10-2013

Quote:You say 2 towns. Colchester and ?

It's not certain which towns are meant.

Tacitus, in Annals, describes Colchester (coloniam Camulodunum), London (cognomento quidem coloniae non insigne - "though undistinguished by the name of a colony") and St Albans (municipio Verulamio) being destroyed. He later says that Paulinus "resolved to save the province at the cost of a single town" (unius oppidi damno servare universa statuit). Note that each 'city' is called something different here! Colonia, Municipium and Oppidum...

In Agricola (1.5), T writes only of 'colonies burnt' (incensae coloniae). Confusing, as there was only one colony, Colchester... :unsure:

Suetonius, in Nero 34, writes of "a great disaster in Britain, where two of the principal towns belonging to the Romans were plundered" (clades Britannica, qua duo praecipua oppida magna civium sociorumque caede direpta sunt). But is that translation quite accurate? Surely 'civium sociorumque' means something like 'of citizens and allies'? This might suggest that Colchester (of citizens) and Verulamium (of 'allies') was intended.

This might be significant - if the text only mentions the 'principal' towns of both Romans and allies, then other places could have been destroyed too ( I think caede direpta means more than 'plundered'?). Would Silchester, for example, have been a more important 'allied' city than St Albans?

Cassius Dio (62.1) writes that "a dreadful disaster occurred in Britain: two cities were sacked..." This is very similar to Suetonius's version - Dio wrote in Greek, but they could have both drawn on the same Latin source. In which case it would be the same two cities - Colchester and St Albans. But Dio probably didn't actually know exactly which two cities his source was referring to!

He goes on to say (62.7) that Boudica was able to "to sack and plunder two Roman cities, and, as I have said, to wreak indescribable slaughter…" I don't know whether the Greek text is as certain about the status of the cities as the translation implies! If so, Dio could just be assuming that both cities were Roman, or explicitly referring to Colchester and London.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 09-10-2013

Quote:It's not certain which towns are meant.
Colchester is almost certainly one. The other could be London or St. Albans. I would opt for London.



Quote:In Agricola (1.5), T writes only of 'colonies burnt' (incensae coloniae). Confusing, as there was only one colony, Colchester... :unsure:
This is rhetoric. In the same passage, he refers to "intercepti exercitus", 'armies intercepted', and we know of only one legion, the Ninth, being intercepted.



Quote:Suetonius, in Nero 34, writes of "a great disaster in Britain, where two of the principal towns belonging to the Romans were plundered" (clades Britannica, qua duo praecipua oppida magna civium sociorumque caede direpta sunt). But is that translation quite accurate? Surely 'civium sociorumque' means something like 'of citizens and allies'? This might suggest that Colchester (of citizens) and Verulamium (of 'allies') was intended.
Adopting my usual policy of literal translation, I would render this passage as, 'a British disaster, in which two principal towns full of citizens and allies were laid waste with slaughter'. This could, therefore, refer simply to the populations of both towns, without differentiating between them. The translator in the Loeb edition thinks that the towns are Camulodunum and Verulamium but they could equally well be Camulodunum and Londinium.



Quote:Cassius Dio (62.1) writes that "a dreadful disaster occurred in Britain: two cities were sacked..." This is very similar to Suetonius's version - Dio wrote in Greek, but they could have both drawn on the same Latin source. In which case it would be the same two cities - Colchester and St Albans. But Dio probably didn't actually know exactly which two cities his source was referring to!

He goes on to say (62.7) that Boudica was able to "to sack and plunder two Roman cities, and, as I have said, to wreak indescribable slaughter…" I don't know whether the Greek text is as certain about the status of the cities as the translation implies! If so, Dio could just be assuming that both cities were Roman, or explicitly referring to Colchester and London.
Dio goes on, in Paulinus' speech before the battle (62.9), to speak of two cities being burned, one having been betrayed and the other abandoned to the rebels. We have discussed this before and I have suggested that this refers to Colchester and London respectively. In the Greek, the word translated as 'cities' is, in each of these instances, poleis.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 09-13-2013

Quote:
Nathan Ross post=343952 Wrote:. . . clades Britannica, qua duo praecipua oppida magna civium sociorumque caede direpta sunt . . .
Adopting my usual policy of literal translation, I would render this passage as, 'a British disaster, in which two principal towns full of citizens and allies were laid waste with slaughter'.
I have had second thoughts about my translation. The issue is whether magna is a neuter nominative plural governing oppida (as I originally thought) or a feminine ablative singular governing caede (as I now think it may be). If the latter is the case, I would now translate the passage as, 'a British disaster, in which two principal towns were laid waste with the great slaughter of citizens and allies'. I don't think that it makes a great difference to the interpretation of the passage but I mention it for the sake of accuracy.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - davidscott - 09-20-2013

:oops:
Well,
I seem to have started P45 saying ''although I do not want to stray from this topic'', It's now almost a week and I seem to have ambushed it as well as B. did to the IXth! Maybe I should now go off and 'burn' a few more theories?

Recently I had an interesting conversation with Kerry Sullivan (aka Gaius Paulinus Suetoius, who seems to have disappeared from these skirmishes ) about Clifton-upon-Dunsmore. Maybe the only flaw in his claim is that it is 'in his own backyard (just up the road)' :evil: Sorry Kerry, only joking!

So where has Paulinus gone today?

Come on you Generals! Give me something to get up in the morning for. :lol:


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - 66kbm - 09-20-2013

Try fighting for this............
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2412038/Iron-Age-excavation-site-gives-gruesome-glimpse-past-bodies-slaughtered-chopped-chilling-massacre.html
Possibly another reason II AVG did not respond to Paulinus.
And another thing I really cant get my head around was the fact that the "Preafectorus Castorum" committed "hari-kari" cuase of this. We are talking about the equivalent of at least a CSM if not a RSM in the modern British Army. A man with that amount of experience would not of done so. I think he was killed in said possible engagement above. ????
Too much emphasis has been put on the battle/site rather than situations surrounding the so called engagement.
If only the Preafectus Castorum was in charge of II AVG, where were his superiors, with Paulinus,along with a Vexillation, who were not mentioned due to the non reply of the rest of the Legion, maybe that is why II AVG are not mentioned. not wishing to take the rap for their troops not turning up, blamed it, politically as happens nowadays, on the 3rd in command of the Legion.
Is that enough David Scott...........If you know more, then please tell me.
Kevin

I honestly believe that Paulinus, prior to battle, but maybe not beforehand, knew that II AVG were otherwise disposed and were unable to commit to his wishes.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - davidscott - 09-21-2013

Seems unlikely to me, but would it be such a coincidence that the same thing was happening in the West for the same reason? If this were the case, would S. be taking the Western route?
Interesting that it is on the route from Isca to Calleva though. Suppose there are no 'defiles and plains' nearby?
One recorded battle and one known mass grave with Ballistas? No. Surely it's too far West?


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 09-21-2013

Don't forget that there had been an invasion eighteen years previously during which Vespasian, apparently campaigning in the area, captured more than twenty oppida. Maiden Castle and Hod Hill are not that far away.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - davidscott - 09-21-2013

Yes, In my moment of 'Wishful Thinking',I had completely overlooked that. Thanks for putting me right. on what could well be the obvious answer.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - John1 - 12-13-2013

Atherstone Civic Society have produced a new publication on Mancetter that may be of interest:

In the first book to be published on Roman Mancetter, Colin Baddeley tells the story of the Roman invasion of AD 43 from the perspective of the half-legionary fortress at Mancetter and the fourteenth legion who inhabited it. He describes the Romans’ struggle to colonise Britain against native resistance, culminating in Queen Boudica’s ill-fated attempt to put an end to Roman domination. The battle, which claimed many thousand British lives, may have been fought at Mancetter.

A bank manager by profession, Colin Baddeley was a member of the Atherstone Archaeological and Historical Society’s excavation team, who under their director, Keith Scott, carried out numerous excavations around Mancetter from the 1960s until the 1990s. Colin Baddeley also lectured and led guided tours of Roman sites in Mancetter and in Germany. He died in 2012.

The book is available at £7.99 (plus £2.50 postage and packing) from Atherstone Civic Society, email.: [email protected]



Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - davidscott - 02-26-2014

Here I am, coming out of hibernation, eagerly awaiting the next post. The one which definitively identifies the site and burial place! Where has B. gone this last few months? Has she been killed off, I wonder?


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - John1 - 02-27-2014

A pause before the 2014 campaign I suspect, I gather the limited exploration of Dunstable is to continue but nothing conclusive I am aware of yet.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - Renatus - 02-27-2014

I thought that it was established that Boudica's burial place was under Kings Cross station. I forget the platform number, unfortunately.


Calling all armchair generals! Boudica\'s Last Stand. - davidscott - 02-27-2014

Platform No. 9, Like the London Buses which, having waited for hours, all come along together?