+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. (/showthread.php?tid=16575)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-02-2023
It's media influence.... that film was made by the Stoll Company, so Tring and Dunstable would have been the first choice of sites due to the direct and short rail links between those sites and their studios in Cricklewood..... obviously couldn't be bothered to go as far north as the real site near Watford Gap.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-03-2023
(03-31-2023, 05:58 PM)John1 Wrote: this 1927 theory (courtesy of Duncan MacKay)
Amazing find - well done!
It's actually pretty impressive for its day - I liked the Roman marching kit in particular - and the enthusiasm of some of the participants is wonderful.
(04-02-2023, 03:26 PM)John1 Wrote: studios in Cricklewood..... obviously couldn't be bothered to go as far north as the real site.....
More importantly, it predates Webster's popularisation of the so-called 'cavalry dash theory', and his promotion of Mancetter. Without these ideas to distort the narrative and send the search off into the Midlands, the Chilterns and the Dunstable/Tring area must have seemed the obvious choice.
As they say in the film, 'Boadicea' was aiming to return home after sacking London and Suetonius Paulinus positioned his forces to intercept her. Which is what I've been saying for years as well...
![[Image: wink.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/wink.png){kind=icon}
(03-31-2023, 08:55 PM)Renatus Wrote: I think that this may be the film that we discussed some time ago, although then it seemed that no copy had survived.
It seems so - here is our brief discussion.
However, looking through a little more of the Martha Vandrei book, it appears likely that the version now available on Youtube is a cut-down edit of the original film, which from the description in the book contained several other scenes - including Paulinus attacking the druids on Mona - and a whole new subplot involving one of Boadicea's daughters falling for a Roman soldier... !
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-04-2023
"was aiming to return home after sacking London and Suetonius Paulinus positioned his forces to intercept her. "
I know you don't get out much but you do know where Ivinghoe is relative to a line between London and Thetford is don't you??
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-04-2023
(04-04-2023, 03:40 PM)John1 Wrote: you do know where Ivinghoe is relative to a line between London and Thetford is don't you??
Well, I may occasionally have looked at a map...
![[Image: tongue.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/tongue.png){kind=icon}
As we've discussed here before, Boudica's army could not have returned home by retracing their route, as they would have stripped the land bare along their line of march. As they've already moved north-west to St Albans, the logical route for them to take would be the Iknield Way, which would lead them through new territory where they could effectively live off the land.
By positioning his troops anywhere along the Iknield between Tring and Dunstable, Suetonius Paulinus would force the Britons to turn and fight him. Otherwise he would have been able to attack them from the flank or rear.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-04-2023
And just how are Tring (t) or Dunstable (d) on the way home from Verulamium? It's a significant diversion..... and then we're back into the Parade model..... and approaching along the Chiltern ridge.... or bringing in a right hook from any direction from Luton.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-05-2023
(04-04-2023, 05:31 PM)John1 Wrote: It's a significant diversion.....
Both sites are only 10-12 miles from St Albans, so not much of a diversion.
I'm sure anyone looking at your plan will see that Boudica's route home - whether in a direct line or via the Iknield Way, which runs approximately parallel to your arrow but on the far side of the Chilterns - would be threatened by a Roman force of 10K men half a day's march in their rear. Especially as he could be reinforced along either Watling or Akeman Street, or both.
Suetonius Paulinus's plan was to lure the Britons into attacking him on ground which favoured his forces. By positioning himself at Tring or Dunstable he could do just that. No unusual long-distance movements are required by either side.
(04-04-2023, 05:31 PM)John1 Wrote: approaching along the Chiltern ridge.... or bringing in a right hook from any direction from Luton.....
Once again, this depends on our ideas of the tactical and strategic capabilities, and movement speed, of Boudica's army. I would think that any large and mostly untrained force moving with wheeled transport (carrying their families and loot, that they would not want to leave unprotected) would be unlikely to start making right hooks or traversing ridges. And if they tried to do so, Paulinus could easily have moved to oppose them.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-05-2023
"Suetonius Paulinus's plan was to lure the Britons into attacking him"
well that's a bit different from your earlier proclamation;
"By positioning himself anywhere along the Icknield Way between Tring and Dunstable, Suetonius Paulinus would force the Britons to turn and fight him"
At Ivinghoe he is on a ridge overlooking the Icknield Way well west of the Iceni withdrawal route. He isn't a challenge other than mopping up a rear guard after following the Brits home away from his chosen ground.. If they hit St Albans why head over the Chilterns to go home? just bimble northeastwards.... catch the Icknield further down the line....
... this is all premised by a road bound parade which you know I don't buy anyway..... furthermore this exercise is making me less positively disposed towards the Chiltern sites than I was earlier.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-05-2023
(04-05-2023, 10:54 AM)John1 Wrote: that's a bit different
Not too different - whether he lures them to fight or forces them to fight, the outcome is the same. Only the level of compulsion differs.
[edit - to be fair I should add that this is all conjecture. Tacitus just says that Suetonius 'gave up delay and prepared to fight a battle' (omittere cunctationem et congredi acie parat), and Dio that he 'was compelled, contrary to his judgment, to engage them'. The first sounds like Suetonius was making the decision, the second like the Britons were making it. Either way, we can't know really.]
(04-05-2023, 10:54 AM)John1 Wrote: At Ivinghoe he is on a ridge
I would probably not choose Ivinghoe itself as a site, but if I had to I would put the Romans in a hollow to one side of the ridge, as I did here.
(04-05-2023, 10:54 AM)John1 Wrote: He isn't a challenge other than mopping up a rear guard... just bimble northeastwards....
Presumably the Britons would not want to have their rearguard mopped up, all the same! Especially as it probably comprised all those carts and families mentioned above...
Any northeastward cross-country 'bimbling' the Britons cared to do would be very hazardous with a Roman army on their tail - especially if Suetonius kept his force on the Iknield, and could march parallel to their route and strike them wherever he chose.
As I suggested above, we don't know that much about the strategic capabilities of Boudica and the Britons, but I think we must assume they were not totally incompetent, or suicidal!
(04-05-2023, 10:54 AM)John1 Wrote: this exercise is making me less positively disposed towards the Chiltern sites than I was earlier.
A shame! Out of interest, though, what was making you postively disposed towards these sites before, and what's changed?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-06-2023
This interview with Duncan MacKay is good, awaiting the book for a more precise location though:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1Y56yK1Afm9uH8LpUNnt3J
Regarding the Chilterns:
1, The choreographing of the British approach has to be very constrained to get an advance into the place it would need to be for the scenarios presented.
2, There seems no way to contain/protect the flanks of a Roman force in the valley.
3, No really credible way to protect the rear of the Roman force in the scenarios.
The recent exchange underlined how much control over the British mob there would need to be to make the British forces act as a column for any distance. I just don't think that in the real world the forces or campaign could be controlled in such a way, it is only the terrain that can deliver and funnel the British to the point and killing ground Paulinus has chosen. The Chiltern candidate terrains are not good for this. (Mancetter, Bicester and Little Brickhill are even worse IMHO).
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-06-2023
(04-06-2023, 07:29 AM)John1 Wrote: This interview with Duncan MacKay
I was just listening to the very same thing
![[Image: smile.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/smile.png){kind=icon}
He doesn't explain why he goes for AD60 as the date, and sure enough he doesn't pick an exact site, but otherwise I'm happy to see that in most respects his suggestions seem to accord with what I've been saying for many years!
He has Paulinus marching down to London with his full force, withdrawing to St Albans, and the battle happening very close to there. The book may indeed present a few more specific details*, but it's good to see that the direction of popular and academic debate is finally swinging away from the Webster/Mancetter orthodoxy, and from sites in the Midlands to those much closer to London.
* (I see from the preview on Google Books that the author mentions Chivery Top, and Barry Horne's Dunstable theory!)
Regarding your points:
1, the Britons are at St Albans, the Romans are only 10-12 miles away. No choreography is required to get both sides to the battle site. Both sites are approached up a river valley - the Bulbourne and the Ver - that would naturally form their advance into a column. I would suggest that any force moving with wheeled transport will stretch out along the route anyway.
2 and 3, the Roman flanks or rear would only need protecting in these scenarios if the Britons could easily scale the ridges on either side and drop down behind them without being noticed - which would negate the entire purpose of the position. As I've said, if Paulinus thought this was a possibility he would not have put his troops in a valley in the first place. Also, if the Britons could do this in the Chilterns then they could do it at Church Stowe as well!
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-06-2023
Your point 1, cuts to the core, it assumes (as with most theories) that the Britons are moving in a singular group and acting as an army. They don't need to be, the text doesn't say or even imply they are and such an interpretation seems to be actually quite unlikely. We don't share this assumption.
Your point 2 & 3, I disagree with you (obviously) the Chiltern escarpment is very long, accessible and uninterrupted, impossible to block even if the defenders are aware of an approach from east or west. Church Stowe is a very different and remarkable terrain of a detached "Y"shaped ridge where terrain and tight vegetation constraints force an almost singular entrance from the East.
Having exercised our regular and fundamental difference I'm going to bow out now... I have to do a Design Review on a site at none other than Chivery Top, almost as big a coincidence as the de Segrave connections.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-06-2023
(04-06-2023, 10:15 AM)John1 Wrote: it assumes (as with most theories) that the Britons are moving in a singular group and acting as an army.
I think it's a fair assumption that they were acting as an army in the immediate run-up to the battle. Paulinus would have found it very difficult to defeat them if they were not!
(04-06-2023, 10:15 AM)John1 Wrote: Having exercised our regular and fundamental difference
Yes, it is becoming a bit of a seasonal thing now, like maypole dancing or something. Online Archeologists of the future will probably decide we are doing it for 'ritual purposes'.
Best of luck at Chivery Top!
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 04-06-2023
(04-06-2023, 07:59 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote: He has Paulinus marching down to London with his full force, withdrawing to St Albans, and the battle happening very close to there. The book may indeed present a few more specific details
I have bought the Kindle edition and have dipped into it. He opts for Windridge Farm.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 04-06-2023
(04-06-2023, 03:55 PM)Renatus Wrote:(04-06-2023, 07:59 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote: He has Paulinus marching down to London with his full force, withdrawing to St Albans, and the battle happening very close to there. The book may indeed present a few more specific details
I have bought the Kindle edition and have dipped into it. He opts for Windridge Farm.
Well I didn't expect that.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 04-06-2023
(04-06-2023, 04:21 PM)John1 Wrote:(04-06-2023, 03:55 PM)Renatus Wrote: He opts for Windridge Farm.
Well I didn't expect that.....
Nor did I!
Looking at further snippets on Google, I see that the book references the work of Steve Kaye and Deryk Cundy.
Also: "the Roman Army Talk Forum thread 'Calling All Armchair Generals'..."
![[Image: shocked.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/shocked.png){kind=icon}
At least we know we are not just talking to ourselves around here!