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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-07-2023
(03-07-2023, 08:06 AM)John1 Wrote: "I see the battle somewhere around the western side of Iceni territory..." ...with this fundamental statement you may be negating the western candidate sites (Mancetter, Ogbourne, Bicester) and other more distant sites (Virginia Water and all sites South of the Thames).
I don't think it's so much a 'fundamental statement' as an opinion. Nothing in what Alan has said so far negates any other candidate, as far as I can see.
The adjusted relief map at the bottom of your post appears to show the Britons 'outflanking' my proposed position at Newground near Tring by rushing up onto the high ground on either side. Leaving aside the unlikelihood of them doing this (with the strong possibility that the heights were occupied by Roman cavalry or light infantry, and in the process abandoning their wheeled transport and families), this 'outflanking' would be possible in any position where the Romans had high ground on their flanks, unless there are actual cliffs or dense forests to block them.
Since Tacitus's description makes it as clear as can be that the Roman position was in the defile, with high ground on the flanks, your objection could be raised against any site that meets the criteria. Only in those cases where, contra Tacitus, the Romans have taken a position on a ridge could they be considered safe, by your implication.
![[Image: shocked.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/shocked.png){kind=icon}
(03-07-2023, 08:06 AM)John1 Wrote: Prof. Will Bowden... defined Iceni territory as being co-terminus with the combined county boundaries of Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk.
Interesting. That would make Suetonius Paulinus's march towards Colchester via Leicester and Medbourne to Godmanchester, and then rerouted march south down Ermine Street to London very much "through the midst of a hostile population".
(03-02-2023, 05:18 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: interlocking fields of fire, obstacles and minefields... a low rampart or ditch to break the enemy charge... light artillery to be positioned on the slopes
The quote from Histories that Steve repeated above, relating to Paulinus's tactics in AD69, suggests that his method was to clear battlefields rather than to obstruct them: "to fill up the ditches, clear the fields". The idea was to leave a clear path for his troops to charge in cuneus, once the enemy had concentrated in front of his position, across "an open plain free of ambuscades", with no ditches, copses or places of concealment where the enemy could hide, rally, or hold out against the Roman assault. It's quite a different approach to the modern idea of a 'prepared battlefield', I think.
Although Vegetius says that each legion had a complement of artillery, we don't know whether Paulinus would have brought it with him from Anglesey. Bearing in mind that he was marching quickly and presumably lightly, it might be considered unlikely.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-07-2023
"your objection could be raised against any site that meets the criteria."
- with one clear exception. The one where a steep sided "Y" shaped ridge, moated by a marshy willow choked valley prevents movement along or behind a ridge top enclosing a dead end valley. So closed at the rear, topographically, and closed at the rear and flanks by woodland... must be unique.... certainly is in this debate..... It is.... drum roll.... Church Stowe....
- Blue = boggy streams choked with willow scrub, the only woodland impenetrable to light infantry.
- Red lines and open boxes on the ridgetop spring line = field fortifications directing any approach to the opening of the throat to the east. These are the prepared positions Alan predicts, and excitingly extant so can be tested....
-Red closed box = Roman infantry core "in" the valley.
- Green = the core line of approach, that of least topographic and military resistance from the British RV at Hunsbury Hill (you know the one chock full of abandoned querns and Iron Age weapons)
-Reverse the green line and that's the flight along the Nene to Iceni territory only 30 miles away, marked by the yet to be discovered Roman camp at Wadenhoe, then onwards to the slaughter of the innocents by Paulinus as they tried to shelter at Stonea Camp...
- Then back to "x" there are roman friezes depicting a military slaughter... as the victory monument overlooking Watling Street choke point through the great limestone ridge separating Britannia Superior from Inferior in a place called "Stonewall Field"
-Then shunt to "y" and you have Telford's finds of numerous "African" skulls and strangely shaped horse shoes (hipposandals and auxiliary cavalry anyone? XX was recruiting in North Africa around then after all)
"Nothing in what Alan has said so far negates any other candidate"
- well you read it differently and negate any value in a military perspective if such observations cannot filter out sites of such dispersed geography... I wonder what Alan and Steve think of our very different interpretations of Alans statement?
"by rushing up onto the high ground on either side"
- hardly rushing in... they could bimble along those ridgetops or the Icknield Way for many miles over open chalk down or metalled road before having to worry about getting contact.. and you are hardly closed at the rear by mature clay woodland if you are facing light infantry.
"interlocking fields of fire, obstacles and minefields... a low rampart or ditch to break the enemy charge... light artillery to be positioned on the slopes"
-so a cleared battle site in the valley bottom to provide clear arcs for ridge top artillery whose raining down of shot into massed ranks accounts for the disproportionate casualty figures....
"we don't know whether Paulinus would have brought it with him from Anglesey"
- nor does he need to if the Romans had a depot in the vicinity, maybe in the middle of the country, connected to river and road, at the jumping off point for the campaign on Mona... you know like at Weedon, oh gosh that's Weedon (Heathen Temple on the Hill) right there.... then again he probably did bring it with him as a cautious commander...
656, 566
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-07-2023
(03-07-2023, 01:38 PM)John1 Wrote: preventing movement along or behind a ridge top.
Although if your suggestion is correct and the Britons are able to deploy onto high ground without difficulty, then I'm afraid your map shows that the 'surrounding' swamps and jungles would not have prevented them from doing so at Church Stowe either. In fact, they would be able to surround the Romans completely.
(03-07-2023, 01:38 PM)John1 Wrote: field fortifications directing any approach to the opening of the throat to the east.
Your imaginary field fortifications could be deployed just as easily at Newground, of course, thereby blocking all rebel access to the high ground - if it works for you then I can use it too!
![[Image: smile.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/smile.png){kind=icon}
(03-07-2023, 01:38 PM)John1 Wrote: they could bimble along those ridgetops or the Icknield Way for many miles
'Bimbling' with ox carts? There's a good reason why the Iknield Way, and most other native tracks, follow the low ground. Besides, as I've said, Tacitus describes the position as being in a defile. If the Britons were able to 'bimble' up onto the flanking high ground with ease, Paulinus would not have chosen that spot.
(03-07-2023, 01:38 PM)John1 Wrote: if the Romans had a depot in the vicinity... you know like at Weedon, oh gosh that's Weedon
That's a big 'if'!
And if they did (there's no evidence for it, of course), why would Paulinus have left his artillery at a depot in the Midlands while he went off on campaign against strongholds in Wales and Anglesey? Wouldn't he have needed it?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-07-2023
"without difficulty, then I'm afraid your map shows that the 'surrounding' swamps and jungles"
- after more than a decade on here I am still rather surprised that you fairly obviously haven't been to the site (at least not with your eyes open), nor tried to hack your way through mature willow scrub
your points don't stand desk jockey. (have you even been to Tring?)"Your imaginary field fortifications"
- Like the imaginary fort I have on the HER in Hertfordshire, or the imaginary villa outside St Albans. Imagination says I have two double cohort forts in Castle Yard and Castle Dykes...
"I can use it too! "
- sure you could IF YOU HAD THE MEREST HINT OF ANY EVIDENCE OF THEM !!!!!
"If the Britons were able to 'bimble' up onto the flanking high ground with ease, Paulinus would not have chosen that spot."
- exactly the case you have made against Tring in this exchange.... can you feel the light beginning to dawn on your errors?
"That's a big 'if'!"
- Not as big an "if" as your Tring theory.... Then again I am happy for him to take the artillery train with him everywhere but London... and pick up some spares at the central depot that was there before and after the campaign... or not, it's just not a big deal and I think it's safe to assume he had some light artillery with him on the high ground at the time of the final engagement.
anyway fancy a pint later? We can discuss why the Battlefields Trust ranks Mancetter, Bicester and Little Brickhill above both Tring and Church Stowe.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-07-2023
(03-07-2023, 02:55 PM)John1 Wrote: you fairly obviously haven't... tried to hack your way through mature willow scrub
And nor have the Britons, if your suggestion that they can 'bimble along ridgetops' is correct; this scrub you mention is in the surrounding valleys, as your map makes clear. There would be no reason for them to go anywhere near it.
(03-07-2023, 02:55 PM)John1 Wrote: (have you even been to Tring?)
Of course not. This is a thread for 'armchair generals'...
![[Image: wink.png]](https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/wink.png){kind=icon}
(03-07-2023, 02:55 PM)John1 Wrote: exactly the case you have made against Tring in this exchange.... can you feel the light beginning to dawn on your errors?
Sadly I do not. The case remains that if the Britons were able or likely to attack across high ridges and up and down slopes then Suetonius Paulinus would not have placed his troops in a defile with high ground on each side 'as a defence'. He did, and so they were not. Case closed!
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-07-2023
OK you win, I give up..... Again
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 03-08-2023
(03-07-2023, 08:06 AM)John1 Wrote: It's worth noting that Prof. Will Bowden, the Iceni specialist from Nottingham Uni, defined Iceni territory as being co-terminus with the combined county boundaries of Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk. This seemed a further west than I was anticipating, putting the Iceni homeland as far west as the outskirts of Thrapston on the Nene..
Do you have a reference for this?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-08-2023
well he said it and showed a slide of it entitled "The Territory (ish) of the Iceni", so I guess you can either take my word for it or wait for the BFT lecture to go on line. He also stated he had no view on where the battle might have taken place whilst stood in front of a large campaign map taken from a magazine showing a big black arrow pointing to, and crossed swords over, Ogbourne.... Maybe unintended or maybe tacit support for Steve.... The Bowden slide may have looked a bit like this:
I recall he based this definition on Iceni Coin distribution reported through PAS and mapped by Natasha Harlow (who has loads of Iceni(ish) papers to read).
https://nottingham.academia.edu/NatashaHarlow
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 03-08-2023
(03-08-2023, 08:38 AM)John1 Wrote: well he said it and showed a slide of it entitled "The Territory (ish) of the Iceni", so I guess you can either take my word for it or wait for the BFT lecture to go on line. He also stated he had no view on where the battle might have taken place whilst stood in front of a large campaign map taken from a magazine showing a big black arrow pointing to, and crossed swords over, Ogbourne.... Maybe unintended or maybe tacit support for Steve.... The Bowden slide may have looked a bit like this:
I recall he based this definition on Iceni Coin distribution reported through PAS and mapped by Natasha Harlow (who has loads of Iceni(ish) papers to read).
https://nottingham.academia.edu/NatashaHarlow
Thanks, that's helpful.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Owein Walker - 03-08-2023
(03-08-2023, 08:38 AM)John1 Wrote: well he said it and showed a slide of it entitled "The Territory (ish) of the Iceni", so I guess you can either take my word for it or wait for the BFT lecture to go on line. He also stated he had no view on where the battle might have taken place whilst stood in front of a large campaign map taken from a magazine showing a big black arrow pointing to, and crossed swords over, Ogbourne.... Maybe unintended or maybe tacit support for Steve.... The Bowden slide may have looked a bit like this:
I recall he based this definition on Iceni Coin distribution reported through PAS and mapped by Natasha Harlow (who has loads of Iceni(ish) papers to read).
https://nottingham.academia.edu/NatashaHarlow
I'm not sure why the tribal boundary of the Iceni is so important when the kings of the Catuvellauni and Trinovantes were brothers but lets carryon.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-08-2023
"I'm not sure why the tribal boundary of the Iceni is so important"
My interest is the relative distance of candidate battle sites to theoretical Iceni territory... I work pretty exclusively on geographic factors.... I know nothing of the kinship of tribal leaders.... The proximity of that westernmost (Cambridgeshire) salient of Iceni territory to Watling Street may be significant particularly in light of Alans comments regarding strategic location factors.
"I see the battle somewhere around the western side of Iceni territory possibly not far from St Albans or between St Albans and the Northern Frontier forts (Lincoln?)"
Green = Bowden's definition of the Territory (ish) of the Iceni
Church Stowe - Northern Dot
Tring - Southern Dot
both equally "somewhere around the western side of the Iceni territory"
Also serves to demonstrate the extreme distances to Mancetter (equivalent to Dover), Bicester (equivalent to Nottingham), Ogbourne (equivalent to Manchester) and the "South of the Thames" group... I'm with Alan, but wouldn't stray much beyond 28.92 miles from home territory as a search criteria
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-16-2023
Possible new candidate alert....
"The site of Boudica's last battle was long believed be lost to time, but the threads of the story all pull towards one remarkable, forgotten little corner of the English landscape."
https://www.waterstones.com/events/echolands-a-journey-in-search-of-boudica-duncan-mackay-in-conversation-with-nicholas-crane/norwich-castle-street
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/02/boudicca-returns-as-a-21st-century-feminist-2000-years-after-her-death
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 03-20-2023
(03-16-2023, 10:25 PM)John1 Wrote: "...one remarkable, forgotten little corner of the English landscape."
What a tease!
But I suspect the location is still believed to be lost in time, and will remain so for a while yet. Interesting, though - looks like the book's out in a few weeks so I suppose we can find out then...
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 03-31-2023
Any clues in this 1927 theory (courtesy of Duncan MacKay)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuozZByU1kY
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 03-31-2023
I think that this may be the film that we discussed some time ago, although then it seemed that no copy had survived. Unfortunately, I cannot find the relevant posts. The issue that interested us then was the claim, so far as the final battle was concerned, that it had been filmed on what was thought to be the actual location. I see from this that they place it somewhere on the Icknield Way between Dunstable and Tring, which I think ties in with Deryk's latest theory.