Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand.

Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Printable Version

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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - dadlamassu - 09-15-2022

Steven James wrote:
Well, I hope you do stay around. I like what you have to say.

Thanks, yes, I will stick around. All this conjecture is interesting. I just think that unless we can prepare an outline of the military/political options available to SP which include terrain analysis, own and enemy forces, weather, logistics, timing and all the other planning factors we will not make progress in finding the area of the battle site.

Oddly enough I have waded across the Tay within the last 30 years (so MonsGraupius is exaggerating) and on other occasions when I was younger. Now in my advanced years and with military related health issues it is out of the question so thanks for the offer but I am afraid I need to decline.

I have put these articles by S Kaye aside for reading later as I am now involved in planning Remembrance Sunday
Finding the site by terrain analysis http://bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/Boudica/Boudica-terrain-analysis.pdf
Finding the site of Boudica's last battle: Roman logistics empowered the sword. https://www.academia.edu/download/30955014/boudica_logistics.pdf
Finding the site of Boudica's last battle: multi-attribute analysis of sites identified by template matching. http://www.bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arch/boudica-template/Boudica_template.xhtml

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 09-15-2022

(09-15-2022, 06:17 PM)dadlamassu Wrote: Oddly enough I have waded across the Tay within the last 30 years (so MonsGraupius is exaggerating) and on other occasions when I was younger. Now in my advanced years and with military related health issues it is out of the question so thanks for the offer but I am afraid I need to decline.

Can I ask where? I'm was referring to the lowest ford at Bertha Roman fort (about a mile above Perth). I think the last people on record as crossing at the ford was Crawford (1949:60-61).

When I crossed the ford was 140m across, of which ~100m was running water, the maximum water speed was 1.5m/s and the maximum depth 0.6m and it took 7 minutes to cross at an average speed of 0.34m/s. However, my average speed in the worst 50m, was only 0.2m/s. That is because in this section you cannot walk as normal, because the upstream leg will be dragged downstream below the downstream one causing you to fall. That is because at that water speed and depth, at each step the water grabs your feet and moves it downstream. So, you have to step upstream of where you want your foot to end up. As such, you have to move sidewards like a crab. However, as you lean quite steeply into the flow to counter the water force downstream, you exert a considerable force downstream on the rocks on the river bottom. In the fastest sections, that force is enough to start them moving downstream, so that your footing starts to disappear. Loosing your footing, is a little unnerving when there is 30m of fast flowing very loud river all around you.

The other fun thing, is that on a wide river ford there are very few points of reference. All the water looks the same and in the middle. With the noise and the difficulty standing, if you keep focus on the river (as you need to to work out where to step), it can become disorientating ... it's a form of sensory depravation. You do need to stop, look at the banks and steady the nerves.

However, if you crossed fords regularly, I'm sure it would be easier. On the other hand, I had a specialist life jacket and equipment tailor made for crossing, and I wasn't wearing heavy armour or carrying a big pack ...and if I fell in, I'm an excellent swimmer the water was warm, and I had a dry change of clothes, and I had assistance waiting on the bank.

The closest experience is climbing a 200m cliff, where you lose touch with the ground, or climbing an icy rock face in the wind when it snows and you cannot see the ground.

To put it in perspective, when I crossed, the flow was about 45cumecs. The average flow of the Thames at Kingston is 66cumecs.

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Steve Kaye - 09-16-2022

Alan (dadlamassu),

Some of us on this thread have previously (many years ago!) thought that a trained military mind might aid in the finding of Boudica's last battle. May I suggest that you take time to write a detailed document or essay; make that available online and allow us to respond in detail. That would give you the peace to gather your arguments without distraction. I would happily wait for such a document.

BTW, with regard to my earlier essays, you can, if you wish, save some reading time by viewing the following; it is the last essay in a series and contains most of the earlier thoughts and works.

Finding the site of Boudica's last battle: multi-attribute analysis of sites identified by template matching. http://bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arch/boudica-template/Boudica_template.xhtml

There is also a PDF version on the same site.

Regards, Steve Kaye

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 09-16-2022

(09-16-2022, 09:14 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: Finding the site of Boudica's last battle: multi-attribute analysis of sites identified by template matching. http://bandaarcgeophysics.co.uk/arch/boudica-template/Boudica_template.xhtml

There is also a PDF version on the same site.

Regards, Steve Kaye

Steve I like the approach, but there are two problems which still beset us.

The first is that there is no recognition that Suetonius had a large delay between London and taking on Boudica. And this is so abundantly clear from the words used:He "prepared" to break off "delay", he did not repeat Cerialis "rash" rush to battle and was looking for a "seat of war".

The second, is that there is a general denial that the Thames exists. We know this was a great tribal boundary, and we know that Caesar had huge problems crossing the Thames at London. Yet people pretend it does not exist. Yet we know that if people were overwhelmed in London, having been forewarned of Boudica's arrival, that means they could not escape by merely walking over the bridge ... which means the bridge had been taken down. Which means it had been deliberately taken down, before Boudica got to London, and so by Suetonius who "sacrificed the settlement". And he would only do that if he was using it as a defensive measure "pulling up the drawbridge" after he crossed.

When you take these two facts into account: the big delay and that Suetonius crossed the Thames and used it as a defensive barrier, we get a completely different starting position from the one which was created by the infamous "galloping Suetonius down Watling Street". Everyone now seems to agree, the gallop down Watling street never happened. Yet, people are still tied to the galloping man scenario in that they still have the perception of "acting in haste" (like Cerialis), assume (despite nothing in the text saying anything of the sort) that Suetonius went back north up Watling street, and ignore the strategic value of the Thames.

WHEN WILL PEOPLE GIVE UP THE GALLOPING HORSEMAN SCENARIO?
WHEN WILL THEY START AFRESH AND DUMP ALL THE FALSE ASSUMPTIONS OF THE GALLOPING HORSEMAN?

So, the multi-attribute analysis, likewise repeats the same dash in that every scenario of Suetonius after leaving London, has him dashing off as fast as he can. Despite highlighting that Suetonius had a "cautious, prudent and experienced character" we still see the same "Galloping man" craziness of Cerialis as the author has Suetonius dashing over the Thames and heading at speed to the south cost: going through the gate of the Thames "wall", and leaving it unguarded.

Why would Suetonius go all the way to the south coast with Boudica supposedly pursuing and then start defending, when he could have gone over the bridge at London, taken down the bridge, sent small forces to guard the other bridge and a few (very difficult ) fords and then sat down to pour himself a nice glass of wine, knowing he was safe from Boudica? The only minor drawback would be the screams of Romans being crucified on the far bank ... (not in text ...but not unrealistic)

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 09-16-2022

(09-16-2022, 09:50 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote:
WHEN WILL PEOPLE GIVE UP THE GALLOPING HORSEMAN SCENARIO?
WHEN WILL THEY START AFRESH AND DUMP ALL THE FALSE ASSUMPTIONS OF THE GALLOPING HORSEMAN?

Where does this come from? No one here subscribes to the 'galloping horseman' scenario. On the other hand, if you mean the pro-Mancetter brigade, despite our other disagreements on this I am with you all the way.

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - dadlamassu - 09-16-2022

Steve Kaye wrote:
Some of us on this thread have previously (many years ago!) thought that a trained military mind might aid in the finding of Boudica's last battle. May I suggest that you take time to write a detailed document or essay; make that available online and allow us to respond in detail. That would give you the peace to gather your arguments without distraction. I would happily wait for such a document.

Thanks, Steve. I am interested enough to attempt this. However, I lack the knowledge of the British tribes, their alliances, politics and tribal forces so if I could be pointed to a source that would be great. The reason is that any military analysis starts with the ground, the weather and the enemy. As far as the ground section goes your document at first glance looks useful. The weather and time of year are not clear to me except that it was probably in the third quarter of the year given the campaign in Anglesey. And other than my wargaming (model soldier) interest covering fighting style I do not have an analysis of the Iceni and allied tribes.

So to see what I can put together over the winter please may I ask for a reading list? I will then consult in the National Library of Scotland. Hopefully I will be able to pull some sort of campaign outline together.

I hope my abilities meet your expectation.

EDIT: Just noticed your bibliography

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - MonsGraupius - 09-16-2022

(09-16-2022, 10:40 AM)Renatus Wrote:
(09-16-2022, 09:50 AM)MonsGraupius Wrote:
WHEN WILL PEOPLE GIVE UP THE GALLOPING HORSEMAN SCENARIO?
WHEN WILL THEY START AFRESH AND DUMP ALL THE FALSE ASSUMPTIONS OF THE GALLOPING HORSEMAN?

Where does this come from? No one here subscribes to the 'galloping horseman' scenario. On the other hand, if you mean the pro-Mancetter brigade, despite our other disagreements on this I am with you all the way.

I see it all over the place. The text clearly talk of delay "Prepared" to "break off delay", not acting "rashly" like Cerialis, wanting a "seat for war" ...but instead everyone has Suetonius rushing around like a nutter in some kind of race at fool's speed ... which is the Galloping Horseman ... madly dashing around the place, ignoring any strategic barrier like the Thames, ignoring the need to prepare, to recover, to regroup, to gain intelligence, ... doing nothing the "cautious, prudent and experienced character" of Suetonius would do, instead just doing the mad Galloping Horseman's rushing.

People have this strange idea of a race between Suetonius and Boudica ... the text tells us he sat still for a substantial delay.
The only other person to think about going over the Thames, has Suetonius dashing over the Thames to ... leaving the known barrier totally undefended ... as if it never existed ... any soldier knows, you use the terrain to your advantage ... and the Thames is the best defensive line possibly in all England.

The Galloping scenario is one of a desperate action packed few days of rash rushing, which might have sold a book, but it is totally false. The reality of Roman warfare, (indeed most warfare), is boredom inaction, doing routine tasks and waiting for something to happen.

As for the Thames ... yes the modern Thames is extremely easy to cross, but can I point out that that is entirely modern. They didn't have the bridges at the time of Suetonius. And, may I point out that without the bridges, the Thames is a very difficult wall to cross, because that is what it is ... in the sense that the "Antonine wall" is mostly a big ditch, likewise Roman forts like Ardoch... are made using a series of ditches. And, indeed, one of the hallmarks of a Roman fortification ... is the Roman ditch.

So, what is the problem with understanding that the Thames is an extremely difficult barrier to cross ... what is it that people are having problems understanding ...

THE THAMES IS A DEFENSIVE BARRIER!

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Steve Kaye - 09-16-2022

(09-16-2022, 11:02 AM)dadlamassu Wrote: "Thanks, Steve. I am interested enough to attempt this." Excellent.

"However, I lack the knowledge of the British tribes, their alliances, politics and tribal forces". As John1 mentioned a few pages back 'An Atlas of Roman Britain' by Jones and Mattingly is quite good for maps.

The stalwarts on this thread have probably read most references to the Boudica story so ask a question, or for a reference, and I expect the answer will arrive.

Good luck.

Regards, Steve Kaye

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Owein Walker - 09-16-2022

I have a couple of points to mention that may come to be important.

First, I think it may be important for people to consider the only source of Ironstone for making weapons is from the North west of the region in Northamptonshire. Would that affect your decision-making ?

Secondly, A Salt way from Salinae (Droitwich),17 miles from Worcester, ran across the midlands as far as a hillfort at Sandy in Bedfordshire. This Salt way is Pre-Roman, possibly Late Bronze Age, and appears to join up the network of Hill forts, with strong suggestions it included The Lunt Fort.

I have also to question the idea of Boudica's army, led by various Chieftains, all finding the resources they need travelling along a Roman road and not feeling vulnerable.

A few more things I consider,one is this 'defile' and its translation.the only one I could consider as a defence that I've read describes it like a' tongue' .A long narrow piece of land at the end of a valley .That gets ignored and I don't know why.

And What about Suetonius preparing defences around his position? he had time and Caesar would have done it.

I understand how this must sound and i really dont wish to upset anyone, but please just keep an open mind,thats all.

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 09-16-2022

(09-16-2022, 05:45 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: A few more things I consider,one is this 'defile' and its translation.the only one I could consider as a defence that I've read describes it like a' tongue' .A long narrow piece of land at the end of a valley .That gets ignored and I don't know why.

I'm afraid that I can't visualise this. Could you explain it more fully?

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 09-17-2022

(09-16-2022, 05:45 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: Boudica's army, led by various Chieftains, all finding the resources they need travelling along a Roman road and not feeling vulnerable.

If they wanted to find places to attack and plunder, the Roman roads would lead them there! [Image: wink.png]

More generally, there's no particular reason why the Britons would follow the road network - although in places like the Chilterns the roads probably followed earlier tracks, which would have used the best available routes anyway.

We should consider, as well, that neither the Britons nor the Romans had anything like a modern map. The Romans had itineraries telling them which road would lead them where, and how long it might take to get there, which would allow a certain amount of long-distance strategy and coordination. The Britons would have known their own tribal homeland. Beyond that both of them were dependent on local guides to lead them.

If either force moved further than 20 miles or so from the other (a day's effective scouting range, out and back) they would have no idea of the enemy's location or direction of march, and would be operating totally in the dark.

(09-16-2022, 05:45 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: What about Suetonius preparing defences around his position?

Nothing in our sources mentions it. He was choosing a battlefield, not building a fortress.

His idea, as I see it, was to get the Britons to attack him on a restricted frontage. They would have been a lot less likely to do this if he was in a securely fortified position - they could have just surrounded him and waited...

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - dadlamassu - 09-17-2022

I cannot comment on the Latin words used and their translation. That said a "defile" is normally a narrow passage through mountains. If I was to ally that to "tongue" then I would picture the chosen site as being a valley wider at the Tribal end than it is at the Roman end. The flanking hills must have been some sort of constraining ground otherwise the tribal forces would have been able extend and outflank the Romans given the disparity in strengths. Whether Tacitus had a good picture of the ground in his mind we do not know but he did know Agricola (father in law) who may have been an eye-witness and if not almost certainly knew many. Veterans often delight in telling tales, if exaggerated or "improved".

On the subject of fortifications, Roman battle drills included making a marching camp each night on campaign. So it is likely that somewhere behind the Romans there was a marching camp which would have had a ditch, embankment and palisade. Probably on the other side of the forest that is quoted as being behind his line.

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Owein Walker - 09-17-2022

(09-16-2022, 08:51 PM)Renatus Wrote:
(09-16-2022, 05:45 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: A few more things I consider,one is this 'defile' and its translation.the only one I could consider as a defence that I've read describes it like a' tongue' .A long narrow piece of land at the end of a valley .That gets ignored and I don't know why.

I'm afraid that I can't visualise this. Could you explain it more fully?

How I see the defile is like a tongue in a mouth. The mouth being the surrounding hillside /valley covered in trees, and the tongue as a narrow spit of land at the head of the valley.

Valleys are formed by rivers or glacial erosion, and in this model it is from a spring head at the end of a valley, surrounded by trees. I imagine two spring fed streams flowing from the hillside, from different places. and converging to a point forming a' Y', the valley then gets narrower, leaving a raised piece of land between the two streams within the Y, like an outcrop or spur of land.

This higher spur of land could easily be narrow ,depending on the position of the streams, and the valley would continue as a V shaped narrow valley, it is not uncommon for more than one stream to rise from a springhead or hillside, and it would give SP a good defensive position on higher ground with trees (timber)to his rear and fresh supplies of water.
SP could build his camp on this spur of land and see along the valley, keeping all of his provisions safely together. I cannot imagine why he would not build a strong base in the time he had. Also being aware of his 'special guests' he has to keep them safe, so he needs a camp. Yes, Tacitus does not mention a camp, but I'm sure Tacitus took it for granted knowing that SP would have waited several days for Boudica to gather her army before the battle.

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 09-17-2022

(09-17-2022, 04:02 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: How I see the defile is like a tongue in a mouth. The mouth being the surrounding hillside /valley covered in trees, and the tongue as a narrow spit of land at the head of the valley.

You say elsewhere that you cannot comment upon the Latin words or their translation but that is precisely the point. 'Defile' is simply the translators' choice of word. The Latin reads 'artis faucibus' which can indeed be translated as 'in a narrow defile'. However, 'fauces' has a number of meanings. Literally, it means 'throat, pharynx, gullet' but when applied to places it means 'a narrow way, defile, pass'. In a maritime context, it means a 'strait or sound'. In relation to the battle, I would be looking for a narrow, steep-sided valley which would allow Suetonius space to draw up his troops but which would prevent the enemy from outflanking him and force them to engage him on his own frontage.

I don't think that there can be any question about Suetonius creating a marching camp. As you say, it was normal practice. Finding it is the problem. Lowland Britain must have been strewn with marching camps dating from the invasion and later but few will have survived two millennia of agriculture.

RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Owein Walker - 09-17-2022

(09-17-2022, 12:21 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(09-16-2022, 05:45 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: Boudica's army, led by various Chieftains, all finding the resources they need travelling along a Roman road and not feeling vulnerable.

If they wanted to find places to attack and plunder, the Roman roads would lead them there!

More generally, there's no particular reason why the Britons would follow the road network - although in places like the Chilterns the roads probably followed earlier tracks, which would have used the best available routes anyway.

We should consider, as well, that neither the Britons nor the Romans had anything like a modern map. The Romans had itineraries telling them which road would lead them where, and how long it might take to get there, which would allow a certain amount of long-distance strategy and coordination. The Britons would have known their own tribal homeland. Beyond that both of them were dependent on local guides to lead them.

If either force moved further than 20 miles or so from the other (a day's effective scouting range, out and back) they would have no idea of the enemy's location or direction of march, and would be operating totally in the dark.

(09-16-2022, 05:45 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: What about Suetonius preparing defences around his position?

Nothing in our sources mentions it. He was choosing a battlefield, not building a fortress.

His idea, as I see it, was to get the Britons to attack him on a restricted frontage. They would have been a lot less likely to do this if he was in a securely fortified position - they could have just surrounded him and waited...

Are you saying SP had his troops do nothing other than sit about resting and waiting on open ground for several days and nights, and the civilians the same, while a huge army prepares to attack them?
It is an interesting idea, but prone to disaster.

You know better than this, I'm sure.

In your scenario, Boudicca could have surrounded SP and waited with or without defences being built. She wasn't forced to attack because of a few defences or lack of them. Her speech prior to the battle mentions something like,

"The Roman division which dared to fight is annihilated. The others cower in their camps, or watch for a chance to escape. "

Remember, this is to motivate her troops to attack a position at the end of a valley, Who was looking to escape, and why mention camps at all? she continued.

"They will never face even the din and roar of all our thousands, much less the shock of our onslaught".

This is an odd phrase,"They will never face". It would be easy to assume she is talking about some Roman soldiers who aren't there, but why mention other combatants when your enemy is ahead of you?

Is Boudicca preparing her troops to attack a camp, as it seems a strange motivational talk if there wasn't one.

I could argue that Boudicca had to attack SP as he seemed firmly embedded in his defensive position, and she hoped to bring him to battle and win. I don't think she could keep her army together, and supplied indefinitely.

(09-17-2022, 04:47 PM)Renatus Wrote:
(09-17-2022, 04:02 PM)Owein Walker Wrote: How I see the defile is like a tongue in a mouth. The mouth being the surrounding hillside /valley covered in trees, and the tongue as a narrow spit of land at the head of the valley.

You say elsewhere that you cannot comment upon the Latin words or their translation but that is precisely the point. 'Defile' is simply the translators' choice of word. The Latin reads 'artis faucibus' which can indeed be translated as 'in a narrow defile'. However, 'fauces' has a number of meanings. Literally, it means 'throat, pharynx, gullet' but when applied to places it means 'a narrow way, defile, pass'. In a maritime context, it means a 'strait or sound'. In relation to the battle, I would be looking for a narrow, steep-sided valley which would allow Suetonius space to draw up his troops but which would prevent the enemy from outflanking him and force them to engage him on his own frontage.

I don't think that there can be any question about Suetonius creating a marching camp. As you say, it was normal practice. Finding it is the problem. Lowland Britain must have been strewn with marching camps dating from the invasion and later but few will have survived two millennia of agriculture.

But few large camps, if any (None so far recorded), have been found at the end of a valley, surrounded by trees.
Likewise, the battlefield has not been found or recorded, yet.

I agree with a narrow steep - sided valley, but it needs a freshwater supply that cannot be poisoned or stopped, therefore spring fed.
I sometimes think we underestimate the preparation and planning of SP and how competent he was. Furthermore, I see the use of Delay as a strategy which allowed him the time to manoeuvre his troops and supplies into a position where he wanted to fight.