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RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Theoderic - 09-28-2021
Steve Kaye wrote:
These defences were not completed before the fort was dismantled, indicating only a very short occupation." A town developed at the site and it is this that was supposedly burnt during the Boudican uprising.
Whether it was the town or the fort that was burnt down (and I am prepared to stand corrected by Steve) it does show that the uprising had reached Godmanchester and that it is not a given that this was a safe area for an army on the move that was prone to ambush.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 09-28-2021
(09-28-2021, 08:30 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: Heritage Gateway records that ...
Thanks for the link, Steve.
"The town was burnt down during the Boudiccan Revolt of AD 60-61, but was quickly rebilt. The new town shows evidence of regular planning, dating to the late 60's of the 1st century AD."
This seems rather similar to the finds from Silchester - burning followed or accompanied by large-scale urban reorganisation. Without other evidence to tie it to the Boudica revolt, could the burnt remains at both sites be just cleared debris from the building/reconstruction work?
However, I wouldn't put the town outside the radius of the revolt necessarily.
(09-28-2021, 12:25 PM)Theoderic Wrote: it is not a given that this was a safe area for an army on the move that was prone to ambush.
"Suetonius... with wonderful resolution, marched amidst a hostile population to Londinium" - so he was passing through unsafe areas anyway.
Even if the burning was connected to the revolt, an army could have occupied the town either before or after it was attacked.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Steve Kaye - 09-29-2021
Deryk, I looked up the details of Godmanchester because you said the fort had been destroyed which made me assume that some new evidence had been recently found. It hasn't. Plus, the comment immediately made me question Tacitus' "the barbarians ... passed by the fortresses with military garrisons" - was this incorrect, what else might be wrong with his account? However, Godmanchester fort was not destroyed in the rebellion and so the veracity of Tacitus' account remains as it was.
Silchester - Prof. Fulford et. al. have been busy at Silchester in recent years, including this year, re-excavating the Victorian excavations on Insula 3, the temples and the Roman baths. Reports on the work at https://research.reading.ac.uk/silchester/interim/; the Facebook site (available from the preceding URL) has a number of films, including the 2021 season.
The question of whether Silchester was attacked by the rebels is still open - unresolved. Undoubtedly something odd was happening during the period.
1) Insula 9: burning and wells infilled with high-status building material;
2) Neronian baths: the first civic baths, c. AD 55-65, their early demolition, possibly unfinished. Replacement baths, about 20/25 years later, on a larger footprint;
3) Three temples are aligned approximately north-south, those to north and south flanking the considerably larger, central temple, still the largest of its kind in Roman Britain. The evidence of the pottery and stamped tile gives a Neronian terminus post quem for the start of construction, perhaps with completion in the early 70s. The temple occupied the site of a possible predecessor of Claudio-Neronian date;
4) Insula 3: Common to most sections was a lens of burnt material about 0.05m thick, approximate date around the mid-to-late 1st century AD. This recalls the evidence of burning found across the excavated area in Insula 9 and associated with the end of the Claudio-Neronian (AD 43-70) occupation and of the burning down of the contemporary courtyard-building on the site of the forum basilica.
I've created the above list from the interim reports at the URL above.
We have to hope that the excavations will continue in some form and that an answer to the oddities of the mid-to-late 1st C. will be found.
Regards, Steve Kaye.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Theoderic - 09-29-2021
(09-29-2021, 07:37 AM)Steve Kaye Wrote: Deryk, I looked up the details of Godmanchester because you said the fort had been destroyed which made me assume that some new evidence had been recently found. It hasn't. Plus, the comment immediately made me question Tacitus' "the barbarians ... passed by the fortresses with military garrisons" - was this incorrect, what else might be wrong with his account? However, Godmanchester fort was not destroyed in the rebellion and so the veracity of Tacitus' account remains as it was.
Silchester - Prof. Fulford et. al. have been busy at Silchester in recent years, including this year, re-excavating the Victorian excavations on Insula 3, the temples and the Roman baths. Reports on the work at https://research.reading.ac.uk/silchester/interim/; the Facebook site (available from the preceding URL) has a number of films, including the 2021 season.
The question of whether Silchester was attacked by the rebels is still open - unresolved. Undoubtedly something odd was happening during the period.
We have to hope that the excavations will continue in some form and that an answer to the oddities of the mid-to-late 1st C. will be found
Steve
Many thanks for the link and update on Silchester. I totally agree that during the Neronian period there was something very strange happening. Were the Atrebates a Client Kingdom or part of the Roman Province? Nero was certainly disbanding Client Kingdoms elsewhere.
Tacitus as you say is correct around the forts that he says were bypassed but obviously it would seem that Godmanchester was burnt. Was this because towns were seen as a Roman construct, alien to the Brythons?
What happened at Silchester? Was burning a way of demolishing buildings for the town planners? Was the burning linked to the revolt? Was this an indication that with Godmanchester there were local uprisings across the country? Was this why the Second didn't march to aid Seutonius Paulinus?
As you say much to consider.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - [email protected] - 10-01-2021
Re; Legio IX (9 th) HISPANA and the Quintus Petellius Cerialis (QPC) ambush by Boudicca. I have been as guilty as anyone by previously stating that 2,000 heavy Infantry were killed. Now, having recently completed a combat estimate (yes - another) on this topic that figure should not be taken as a routine fact. I am not going to go through all criteria this approach has shown, though I think it is important to scrutinize some findings.
Due to the critical time factor and urgency, no competent CO would not want such a delay in marching to Camvlodvnvm. Neither would QPC. He would only have used the nearest major Roman garrison to Camvlodvnvm, which of course was Legio IX HISPANA and that was split in two at Lindvm (Lincoln) and Longthorpe by modern Peterborough. The largest portion (and camp) was based at Lindvm, securing the northern border against the powerful and unstable Brigantes (which had already revolted once before). As for the option of marching directly south from there to Camvlodvnvm with his full Legio, it would require at least 1 day’s preparation before it started out and from Lindvm to Camvlodvnvm was 135 miles away - 6 days of forced marching? Could Camvlodvnvm survive for another week. The answer was probably not. No CO of any note could sanction such a delay, and neither could QPC. Plus, what if the Brigantes actively joined in the revolt and attacked the depleted garrison? That would mean the loss of the entire north. Although QPC was reckless, it was too large a risk to take. He had to leave his main forces behind at Lindvm and use his next available force nearest Camvlodvnvm some 41 miles further to the south - the Vexillation camp of Longthorpe. This contained both Legio Infantry and an Auxilia ‘Alae Quingen’ cavalry Wing. QPC would have led from the front and would have immediately sent a warning order (Wg O) via courier to Longthorpe to ensure that the Vexillation column would be ready and waiting to deploy once he arrived. QPC would then have ridden hard, south from Lindvm with his 120 strong Legio cavalry bodyguard to rendezvous (RV) with them.
As for the holding density of a base/marching-camp this is entirely dependent on which source you read. However, based on analysis I estimate that each hectare (HA) contained enough accommodation space for 1 Legio Cohort or a fifth of an Auxilia Alae (it is common sense that a horse and its accoutrements requires 4 or 5 times more space than an infantryman).
Before the ambush Longthorpe was 350 m x 290 m. 25 Acres (10 HA) and so was capable of housing 4 Cohorts of Legio IX with a 512 strong Auxilia cavalry Wing split into 16 ‘Turmae’ - troops. A combined total of 2,400 men. QPC also could not leave the garrison completely devoid of troops and so would have had to leave a minimum of 1 Legio Cohort behind to remain as a caretaker garrison for camp defence.
So 3 Legio Cohorts of 480 men is 1,440 Heavy Infantry. Legio IX HISPANAs own cavalry formation was 120 men with the Auxilia Alae gives us a total of 532 cavalry and a total combined force of approximately 1,952. However, although Tacitus states only the heavy Legio infantry were destroyed there must also have been losses amongst the cavalry (it was an ambush after all).
We know though archaeology that directly after the ambush Longthorpe was hastily reduced due to casualties to 200 m x 220 m. 11 Acres (4.5 HA). With the caretaker Cohort occupying 1 HA, it leaves 3.5 HA for the cavalry survivors.
We also know from Tacitus that when the revolt was finally over, some 2,000 Legionaries had to be drafted in from Germania as Battle Casualty Replacements (BCRs in modern military parlance) along with 8 Auxilia Infantry Battalions and 1,000 cavalry. Many experts state that the majority of these were for Legio IX HISPANA. Though GSP must have suffered at least 300 Legio and Auxilia dead when assaulting Mona with 300 more wounded. Tacitus also informs us that 200 Legionaries or Auxilia were sent to Camvlodvnvm, where along with its small garrison (say another 100) were massacred. If 1,440 Legio infantry were killed in the ambush plus about the 400 Tacitus tells us that GSP lost in the final battle with 500 or so wounded (Legio and Auxilia) and with others killed in isolated locations, the final butchers bill for the whole of the Roman army was at least 2,140 killed along with 800 wounded at a rough estimate. Probably a quarter of whom died or were unfit for further service. The BCRs total 3,000 for the whole campaign and not just for Legio IX . So Legio IX could not have 2,000 dead. The math's simply do not add up.
QPC, on his first major independent command appointment would have viewed the revolt as a blessing from Jupiter itself. Camvlodvnvm, despite Londinivm’ s rapidly growing importance as a trading post, still held meaning. It was the first Colonia Rome had established in the province - it had to be defended at all costs. The person who successfully did so would be guaranteed to be awarded laurels and instant glory. His senior commander was many miles away on Mona giving him unlimited freedom of movement in his actions. It would be a disgrace not to seize opportunity. QPCs appetite for risk was greater than his superior and that is the root cause of the events that followed. He was overconfident that no one would attack his column. This arrogant attitude would have been disseminated down the chain of command to his whole force. They thought themselves invincible. As for the ambush location, it is a good help if you have actually taken part in ambushes (and taught them). Despite the difference between ancient and modern, the principles remain the same. So again, with head on the block, the QPC ambush is not where many state it is. That, though is for another day.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Hanny - 10-02-2021
(09-22-2021, 06:37 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: There's an interesting note in Caesar (Gallic War 1.29), which I've mentioned before in the depths of this thread. After the defeat of the Helvetii 'records written out in Greek' were found (conveniently!) in the enemy camp, giving a full register of all the tribal groups, both combatants and non-combatants. The total was 368,000, of whom 92,000 were able to bear arms - 1 person in 4, in other words - the rest being 'children, old men and women' (as Caesar puts it; we might be suspicious of the neatness of this calculation).We can also use WHO population models, West II iirc is what Blunt used for his work on manpower, 28 to 34% as being mil age cohorts, we can also do so guess work of our own, lets say iceni land area is 2800 square miles and they have above average pop per square miles, say 50, using say 3 million for roman brittain at the time, we get around 140,000 iceni population.
Using the same ratio on the figures given by Dio - assuming they are based on something genuine-ish, and also assuming (as Tacitus has Paulinus suggest in his pre-battle speech) that the Britons were all mixed up, unarmed women among the warriors - this would give 30,000 Iceni and Trinovante warriors at the start of the revolt, and 57,500 warriors by the final battle. That sounds at least plausible, although we have no way of judging its accuracy.
(on the numbers of Britons slain, it would be tempting to assume that whoever came up with 70-80K dead Britons just took the figure from whatever source Dio was using for the complete army and divided it roughly by three...)
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Convenient, wouldn't you say? I mean, he couldn't bless the weapons if they'd already been taken off to war!
Not as inconvieniant to a Roman as not having the gods on your side
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Mars was originally a god of agriculture, I believe - traditional fighting seasons are based on agriculture in central Italy. Seasonal differences elsewhere mean differences in practical military matters. I would rather trust evidence from contemporary sources than ideas about traditional beliefs.
He still was, Mars in war protected the crops, when war came if you dont protect your crops and hide inside the walls the enemy takes your crops and you risk starvation, a martial race like Rome prefererd to come out and fight to protect those crops, so Mars was also god of war and that war was used to protect crops, unlike Greek Ares.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: When are you referring to? As I understand it, the single emmer crop was prehistoric. The book I linked above suggests evidence both for spelt cultivation, manuring and autumn planting in Britain in the late Iron Age. Again, I would rather trust modern archaeology over whatever Pliny thought was going on..
Pliny and others, tell us that natural cerrial crops require 4 months of fallow following a harvest. This has been tested at Butser and others, and the average crop yield measured between spelt and emmer, emmer is better in modern testing, just as the ancient comentators, Pliny, Columella and Varro tell us its emmer that was the main crop of choice for breadand tells us how to grow it. The romans built London as an import port to bring over cerials to sustain the extra poulation they had put into Britain, the cetrials came from the Rhine ports and emmer was the dominated cerrial crop grown there.
So we have natural cerial growth, sown in spring, harvested at end of year, then we man made adpatation, spring and autumn crops to replace natural cycle, we have manure added crops to allow sowing and maturation of the 100 to 140 day cycle, it does not really matter if its spelt of emmer, what really matters is that experimental archeology has show manure changes output from c1.65 to c3.5 so its this intesive use of manure that was the game changer. Not all pop groups had the cattle or horses to produce the manure, to use that method, but we also know the Iceni was a warrior and horse culture, as the most common finds are horse/chariot finds, and that more torcs have been found in Iceni lands than all the rest of Brittain combined.
So to make use of the reference to not having sown crops and sufferring famine late in the year, we really only need to know roughly when cerial crops were sown, and then maintained with manure, weeding and so on to get full output as harvest time.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: This is the problem - the revolt began while Paulinus was away at war (Agricola, 18), but had almost completed his operations. The war was in progress during the planting season, which the Iceni missed as they were away on campaign.Varro gives us the sowing, and reaping timeline.
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/varro/de_re_rustica/1*.html
Butser does it for all examples of spring and autum crops with and without manure, including crop growthn by month so June is 15% of the weight of the crops growth, so we know your timeline is not in acord with crop cycles.
http://www.butser.org.uk/Cereal%20Yields%20Worst%20Option.pdf
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: The distance a legion could march was defined by the stamina of the troops and the state of the roads, not time measurement. Vegetius (I.9) says that 'at the military step, 20 miles should be covered in five hours, at least in summer time.' That would be 18.3 modern miles.
Not really, the limiting factor is food and water, you can only make the 18 miles a day while your forward carry capacity, be it on the legions or on the mules, gives you that rate of manouver, the amout a man carries and mule carries can be varied to suit circumstances, but a value of 15 days rations on a man and 250lbs on amule gives us the average 18 mpd, for the period of self sustainment last, after its gone you have no rations and no water, and you mpd drops to next to nothing as you have consumed the logistics that give you that mpd capability.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: The Roman day always lasted twelve hours (at least in Italy), but the summer hours were longer. The first hour always began at sunrise, and the twelfth ended at sunset.
In our estimates above of how long the battle might have lasted, we were referring to sunset and sunrise, mid-morning, noon, etc - not Roman hours (we have no sources giving the times as they would have been judged by contemporaries). The stages of the day, and the length of the day, would remain the same however they were counted.
7 hours, making it one of the longest battles of antituity, and 70,000 casulaties, is still 10,000 an hour, vastly more than the hourly death rate of ww2 battles, and more than the first day of the somme, so arguing for a longer period of battle time, when the enemy is 10 miles away in ox carts, is trying to force fit a pre concieved concept.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: c.June – Prasutagus, King of the Iceni, dies. His will divides the Iceni kingdom between Rome and his own two unmarried daughters. His widow Boudica becomes regent.
c. June/July – Paulinus advances from Wroxeter into North Wales, heading for Anglesey, building roads and bridges and subduing resistence as he marches.
c.July/August – After questioning the terms of Prasutagus's will, Procurator Decianus Catus sends men to flog Boudica and rape her daughters. Boudica begins to muster her forces over the harvest period. Paulinus builds landing barges in his camp on the Menai Strait.
August 25th – End of harvest. Boudica holds tribal assembly and calls for revolt. Paulinus begins his amphibious operation against Anglesey, crossing the Menai Strait using barges and attacking defenders on the shore.
August 26th – Iceni begin mobilisation. Paulinus expands his landing area on Anglesey and pushes inland.
August 27th – Attacks on outlying Romanised settlements and villas begin. News of Iceni mobilisation reaches Colchester. Request for military assistance sent to Catus. Conquest of Anglesey continues.
August 28th – Romans engaged in subduing remaining resistence on the island of Anglesey. Iceni sending messages to outlying settlements and to the Trinovantes, requesting alliance.
August 29th – Roman troops burning Druid groves on Anglesey. Catus gets request for aid from Colchester. He forwards message on to Paulinus by express courier. Iceni begin mustering at Thetford.
August 30th – Paulinus completes his conquest of Anglesey and begins establishing and garrisoning forts around the Menai Strait and North Wales. Catus sends 200 men from his bodyguard and office staff to reinforce Colchester.
August 31st – Iceni, having completed muster, move from Thetford to Bury St Edmunds.
September 1st – Catus’ message requesting military support against the Iceni reaches Paulinus at his camp beside the Menai Strait. Catus’s 200 men reach Colchester.
Paulinus plans to go to Angeley, c 120 miles, and take it, he starts from a base of supply that has at least a years supplies as Tactitus tells us thats how legions were operating here, so his plan is to march 120 miles, with a legion of 5000 and 1000 mules, take angelsey and establish a new base of supply to sustain himself there.
Each man a day requires 2.2 lbs ration, 10lbs water. Thats 4.5 litres a man, ( lots of dis information about water requirwements on the board, and comparing logistics from the age of muscle to that of motorization, see here for why https://www.sto.nato.int/publications/STO%20Meeting%20Proceedings/Forms/All%20MPs.aspx?RootFolder=%2Fpublications%2FSTO%20Meeting%20Proceedings%2FRTO%2DMP%2DHFM%2D086&FolderCTID=0x0120D5200078F9E87043356C409A0D30823AFA16F602008CF184CAB7588E468F5E9FA364E05BA5&View=%7B72ED425F-C31F-451C-A545-41122BBA61A7%7D )
Each mules a day requires 5lbs ration, 20 lbs water.
Legions could be logisticaly configured with load outs for quite a range of circumstances, ill use a high end food load ou of 15 days carried, the mules ill take 240 lbs gross carry weight and take 60 lbs for all other items except food and water leaving nett 190 lbs for food and water.
Daily requirement
Man 5000*2.2=11000 lbs
Mule 1000* 25=25000
Toal per day 36000 lbs
Aviable, man with 15 days rations, mules 190 lbs.
Man 5000*33=165000 lbs
mule 1000*190=190000 lbs
total forward lift =355000
So at start of operation, Paulinus has with him 355000/36000, a 10 day period of 18 mpd as he carries everything with him to achive that, after that he has re supply himself, of course he has options, crops are in the fields at diffeing rates of maturation in the months of the year, so he can live of the land, which takes time and lowers march rates to 9 mpd or so, using HB movement rates in italy to gatther supplies in a hostile land, and he is buildingroads etc, or he can supply from base which is the safe bet, and use his unused mules capacity to replace consumed, a mules round trip of 250 lbs is 9 mpd, or 18 mpd single trip, so once he reaches Angelsey, he has 7 marching camps linking him to his base of supply, he can achive a daisy chain of mules moving along this to deliver each day, 13300 lbs to the legions that is consuming 11000 120 miles away from the base of supply, this means, it will take 3 months of that rate of supply to create the new base of supply. So we have a 2 month operation to get there and take it, and 3 months to create the supply base to hold it, a 5 month operation which fits a single campaign season.
Its now he gets the bad news and has to make a plan, his prob logistics is that he has 15 days on the legion, and has a small on hand stock being built up by by the daisy chain mules, allowing for a weeks combat and most mules involved in getting supplies to the other side of the water. Whatever he choses to do must be logisticaly feasable to achive. Wroxeter is also 120 miles from Godmanchester, so he can still use smae base of supply, but instead of being 120 miles away from it in Angelsey, he switches his area of operations to Godmanchster, can he do it in your tim3eframe?, to establish a daisy chain from wroxeter to Godmanchester, he sends word to wroxeter to re direct the mules to Godmanchester, instead of return trip to Angelsey, lets say the dispatch gets there and re directs the incomming mules from Angelse he has not kept with him, they also take 3 days to get to Wroxeter and 11 more to get to Godmanchester, so its day 14 before the first 250 odd mules arrive and day 17 for the last. Each of these 3 days single runs, delivers, 250*190 =47500 lbs less consumed in the 11 day march, 250*25*11 = 68750 so there is not enough mule capacity to do a single run to supply them at godmanchester, so he lacks the time to establish an alt supply route.
Lastly August was not the sowing season,you have conflated sowing with reaping now would be the reaping time, and tacitus tells us its the sowing time that was the problem , ie the spring time when crops were not sown, so if they sowed in spring, they have enough for teh year, even if it was, it implies the entire iceni were military incomptents going to war instead of gathering their basic foods. If we look back at Ceasers acount for the helveti, they took 2 years agricultural peparation, to prepare to go to war.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: September 2nd – Paulinus musters an expeditionary force.
September 3rd – Paulinus, with c.7000 men (14th Legion, plus 4 auxiliary units) begins a march of c.198 miles to Godmanchester: Paulinus march day 1. He sends messengers to Cerialis to meet him at Godmanchester for operations against the Iceni. Iceni move south to Sudbury, attacking Romanised settlements.
In two days, he will have stopped mules from going back and aquired 2 days supplies, so he now has on hand c300 mules, so 57000 on the mules, 165000 with the legions, total of 222000. Each day he consumes, 11000 on legions, and 7500 on his mules, total,18500, so he can march for 18 mpd for 12 days and then has consumed everything, he is marching to fast for any of the other mules to catch up, even he directs them to follow him and half are empty doinga return trip to get supplies, so when he reaches Godmanchester on your day 11,he has a single days supplie on hand.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: September 14th – Paulinus marches south from Godmanchester towards London (c.56 miles away). Catus arrives in Gaul and sends a message to Rome, reporting the imminent loss of the province. Iceni and Trinovantes begin to muster outside Colchester and advance south-west towards London.
Two problems with compressing it all into a single year, first is tacitus records it as a 2 season event, second is the problems of logistics and time and crop cycles, when you compress it to a single year, so to do so means getting creative.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - John1 - 10-02-2021
"the limiting factor is food and water," (for the Legions) hence they mustered at their massively stocked up depot at Church Stowe, from whence they had launched their offensive on Mona and where they had enough water to keep everyone one happy and, even if forced up to the ridge top, the perched water table would provide for all. Great for comms too being at the head of all major river networks and north of Iceni territory.....
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 10-02-2021
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: tacitus records it as a 2 season event
Does he? Where?
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Hanny - 10-02-2021
(10-02-2021, 02:17 PM)Renatus Wrote: Does he? Where?In his parrellel structure of the chronology of events, just as he gives for the rest of his book, you can read up on his analistic mthods at JSTOR.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 10-02-2021
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: Pliny and others, tell us that natural cerrial crops require 4 months of fallow following a harvest.
Do you think you could provide quotes or exact references when you are citing ancient authors? As I commented above, the only note I can find in Pliny is the one about leaving ground fallow before planting with beans.
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: The romans built London as an import port to bring over cerials... cetrials came from the Rhine ports and emmer was the dominated cerrial crop grown there.
Hingley (Iron Age Warrior Queen, p.88) mentions that carbonised grains from the Fenchuch Street destruction layer are Einkorn, not emmer. There were also lentils probably grown in the Mediterranean.
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: Varro gives us the sowing, and reaping timeline.
Again, could you provide a reference? It's quite a large text!
The timeline appears to be as follows:
"In the fourth period, between the [summer] solstice and the Dog Star, most farmers harvest" (De Rustica, 1.32.1)
"In the sixth period, from the autumnal equinox, the authorities state that sowing should begin and continue up to the ninety-first day. After the winter solstice, unless necessity requires, there should be no sowing." (De Rustica, 1.34.1)
Summer solstice to the dog star gives late summer for the harvest. Autumn equinox is mid-late September, so sowing begins then and ends before the winter solstice in December. This seems to accord perfectly with the timeline I suggested above.
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: you have no rations and no water, and you mpd drops to next to nothing as you have consumed the logistics that give you that mpd capability.
All this logisitics stuff is very detailed, but after he left Anglesey Paulinus was operating on Roman roads, between established Roman forts, towns and depots, and could have supplied himself along the line of march. Calculations based on operations in enemy or unconquered territory without established supply points need not concern us here.
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: one of the longest battles of antituity, and 70,000 casulaties, is still 10,000 an hour
As I mentioned above, I think 70 or 80,000 casualties is hugely inflated. I suggested dawn to mid morning as the span of the battle; Michael mentioned that Dio has it extending into the evening, so it could have begun later in the day. Anything more than an hour of direct combat would be highly unlikely.
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: August was not the sowing season,you have conflated sowing with reaping
I don't think so...
August 25th – End of harvest.
October 1st – ...Crop planting season begins around now, interrupted due to war.
Same dates as Varro, quoted above.
(10-02-2021, 01:09 PM)Hanny Wrote: tacitus records it as a 2 season event
I do not think he does. All he tells us is that the Britons had gone away to the war during or shortly before the sowing season, and had not returned.
He also says that the revolt began while Paulinus was conducting operations on Anglesey. Since the military operations would be late summer and the sowing mid autumn, we have our single-year campaign right there.
You have not yet explained how the Britons could still have been absent for a spring sowing season if the revolt began in summer, or conversely how Paulinus could have been operating on Anglesey in midwinter if the revolt began before the spring sowing.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Hanny - 10-02-2021
(10-02-2021, 02:00 PM)John1 Wrote: "the limiting factor is food and water," (for the Legions) hence they mustered at their massively stocked up depot at Church Stowe, from whence they had launched their offensive on Mona and where they had enough water to keep everyone one happy and, even if forced up to the ridge top, the perched water table would provide for all. Great for comms too being at the head of all major river networks and north of Iceni territory.....
Not how Nathans chronology has it.
Prob for the very good reason reason P was not at Church Stowe to launch the campaign against angelsey, which had no large stocks, and was over 200 miles from Angelsey making it logisticaly unable to sustain a legion at that distance.
Logistical reality is very usfull for understanding what was/is strategicaly possible, logiostics determine strategy, both Nathans and your post are examples of explanations that cannot be supported due to logistical reality.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Hanny - 10-02-2021
Since Butser data sets for all three ways of growing it and outcomes, Pliny and M Varro and Columella were not enough, ill add in 2 more.
Virgil tells us that Emmer is planted after the setting of the pleiades, which ocurs in November.
Hesiod* in his Works and Days, 383 to 384. The setting of the Pleiades in the west at dawn marked the time to plow and sow; and the grain harvest commenced once the Pleiades had risen in the east at dawn, Pleiades rise in May.
*Begin your harvest when the pleiades rise, your ploughing when they set".
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Renatus - 10-02-2021
(10-02-2021, 02:23 PM)Hanny Wrote:(10-02-2021, 02:17 PM)Renatus Wrote: Does he? Where?In his parrellel structure of the chronology of events, just as he gives for the rest of his book, you can read up on his analistic mthods at JSTOR.
Perhaps you'd be kind enough to give a reference.
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Nathan Ross - 10-02-2021
(10-02-2021, 03:28 PM)Hanny Wrote: Pliny and M Varro and Columella were not enough
Since Pliny does not appear to say what you claim (unless you have another reference?) and Varro says exactly the opposite of what you are implying he says, where are we to go with this? What is your Columella reference?
(10-02-2021, 03:28 PM)Hanny Wrote: Hesiod* in his Works and Days, 383 to 384. *Begin your harvest when the pleiades rise, your ploughing when they set".
We already discussed this same passage of Hesiod back here. He was writing in Greece c.700BC, and any agricultural practice which involves harvesting in early May would seem to be quite out of synch with the practices used in northern Europe by the 1st century AD, when a late summer-autumn harvest was well established.
You haven't addressed the point about the revolt starting in summer and the people supposedly still being away in the spring though.
(10-02-2021, 02:26 PM)Hanny Wrote: both Nathans and your post are examples of explanations that cannot be supported due to logistical reality.
I would agree that the Romans would not need a supply base in the Midlands for campaigns into Wales, as Wroxeter would provide all they needed in that regard.
But your 'logistical reality' appears to involve the Roman army having no supply or depot network beyond their own immediate campaign centre, no established towns or forts that could supply troops on the march, and an army operating within settled areas having to carry all its own food and water wherever they go. This is not a very likely scenario for AD61!
RE: Calling all armchair generals! Boudica's Last Stand. - Hanny - 10-03-2021
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: We already discussed this same passage of Hesiod back here. He was writing in Greece c.700BC, and any agricultural practice which involves harvesting in early May would seem to be quite out of synch with the practices used in northern Europe by the 1st century AD, when a late summer-autumn harvest was well established.
You haven't addressed the point about the revolt starting in summer and the people supposedly still being away in the spring though.
Hesiod was using observation of planetary bodies to regulate seasons/crop cycles from, this was copied by all so is relavent. I have explained there are 3 ways to look at crop cycles, there is natural, c 1.6 a hectare output, and takes 8 months and requires fallow period,, then there is spring cycle ( most common in this period in societies that had cattle horses to produce over the winter the manure) using manure acumalted over winter cycle with c 3.5 output and 100 to 140 day maturation period, then there is the second single year crop later in the year achieving the same.
Hærfest is old english for modern harvest, and means autumn, and was determined by the phases of the moon, harvest moon, the autumnal equinox, by this time in england they were running a 2 crop yearly cycle.
Actually i have answered this several times, which is why im not sure its safe to compresse it into a single year s timeline.
Tactitus tells us there was a lack of sown crops. Your timeline has iceni mobolise over July August, so a single crop cycle had already been sown and you produce subsistance levels later in the year, the spring crop has been sown, manured weeded and harvested, by mid point in the year, so they have more crops than they need to subsist on, then there is the second crop which they dont need to sow in any event to go to war, but if they did its in the ground already by your timeline but wont get manured in as or weeded.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: I would agree that the Romans would not need a supply base in the Midlands for campaigns into Wales, as Wroxeter would provide all they needed in that regard.
But your 'logistical reality' appears to involve the Roman army having no supply or depot network beyond their own immediate campaign centre, no established towns or forts that could supply troops on the march, and an army operating within settled areas having to carry all its own food and water wherever they go. This is not a very likely scenario for AD61!
Logistic reality is there were 4 legionary basses from which supplies were drawn for legion to operate from. Tacitus tells us its only the Legion main basses that held a years supply of cerials.Second was no chain of supplied forts spaced at 18 miles intervals to draw from at the scale of a legions requirements, and was also not how the army campaigned, civilian contractors acting in settlements, bought cerials from towns and moved it to the legionary basses, so settlements dont have the surplus grain to provide as they already have provided it to the army and delivered it, so taking it meerly adds them to the list of those in revolt, just as tacticus tells us the march from angelsey was through hostile lands. Third, i used a single days water supply carried and allowed water resupply every day and gave a high end example of mule carry weight of 190 lbs for that water and mostly food requirement to sustain itself, which was how the Roman army operated, i did not alow for the legions attached cav which dwarfs the legions requirements, and we are told P lacked supplies. Gentry has shown the volume of grain storage in granaries, in legionary basses, its 24% of land area devoted to grain storage, in timber forts with a cohort garrission is 0.4%to 2.8%, in stone forts, 0.7% to 3.8% https://www.amazon.co.uk/Military-Stone-built-Granaries-Britain-Archaeological/dp/0904531457 So no, in this cent you have 4 basses of supply to draw from, the rest lack the storage space to sustain a legions requirment, and are either already in revolt or risk becomming so if you take their food they need need for winter.
Fourth, being in Angelsy in hostile territory fighting a campaign and having your line of supply, and requiring all your logistical lift to sustain yourself there from your base of supply, going back 120 miles to wroxeter would have been reality, in your time line you then change this line of supply to a different location still 120 miles from base of supply, to perform a round trip of 18 mpd requires a min of 17 days for the mules to establish the new network to Godmanchester, and can only deliver c70% of what is needed by those needding it. Lastly, Roman Legions carried everything with them, its how they operated, this is the age of taking everything you need with you, or living of the land which takes time and lowers your march rate, and hand waving awkward logsticl reality does not change reality.
Picking Godmanchester makes sense strategicly as it controls the river to allow concentration, but there is no gaurentee its town or fort are there when you arrive, http://www.godmanchester.co.uk/roman-godmanchester i recall reading the fort was a 2 aux cohort fort but was not in use after the 43 revolt, and then Romans were not safe as far away as South Cadbury, winchester etc in ad 60.
(09-22-2021, 02:22 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: Using the same ratio on the figures given by Dio - assuming they are based on something genuine-ish, and also assuming (as Tacitus has Paulinus suggest in his pre-battle speech) that the Britons were all mixed up, unarmed women among the warriors - this would give 30,000 Iceni and Trinovante warriors at the start of the revolt, and 57,500 warriors by the final battle. That sounds at least plausible, although we have no way of judging its accuracy.
c57500 looks good, im not convinced all the Iceni mil potential would be massed in one place, so would reduce it further, so what kind of battle was it?, we are told the romans fought in 3 bodies, one was a boars head, this is where the Legion stacks 1 cohort in front of 2, in front of 3 in front of 4, so i prefer the centre legio as one body, in this wedge shape, and its flanks held by the other two bodies. We are also told deep number of ranks were used when the unit was poorrly trained or to face cavalry, and the depth of the British Army must be deep and so present the same issue of weight of push at contact, so a wedge of 2 ranks deep gives each cohort racked up in the wedge the depth of 8 men to counter that, this also give the legion a frontage of 4 cohorts at the rear most line, so 2900 feet, and 10 cohorts acounted for. The two flanks, would need to be deeper than 2 ranks deep or risk being pushed over by weight of numbers, but the wedge shape would also help, so perhaps 4 rank, so 1440 more feet, a total frontage of 4300 feet so a min 1450 front rankers, to which the Brits if the same frontage have 40 man deep formation, but they would be seeking to flank and use their chariots so perhaps 30 ranks deep, still a daunting advanatge.
Cannae is an example of a smaller force defeating a much larger, how more effiecent were HB`s men in that example.
Lets consider efficiency, if Pyrrus has 100 men how much work does he get out of them when fighting Romans?. We have numbers of participants and casualties for a series of engagments, this method gets around all those different numbers involved by normlizing it.
His job as army commander is to get his men as effiecent as possible, so to get his 100 men to kill while staying alive. So you divide how many they kill by how many doing it, you divide how many are killed doing it from how many you had, take one from the other and you have his efiecency at killing while staying alive to kill again.
Example
Asculum he has 40000 and losses 3000 to inflict 8000, so each man did the work of 112. His oppenent also had 40000 but each 100 men did the work of 87. So now you have the battle efficiency.
Then you add in Heraclea and Benventum, and get his average, which was 110, to the Romans 90.
HB for Cannae then is a massive 100 men doing the work of 223.
Our 100 Romans at Watling, are doing the work of 270 men, ( best Roman performence in 2PW was 186) in Tactitus they are doing nearly 800 mens work. So at 270 its still of the scale, if you build upa database of ancient battles it tops the effiecency list, but its not totally inplausable, but tacitus numbers are i believe.