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Fast shooting machine - lyuv - 02-27-2010
Hello all,
Josephus Plavius writes about the romans using "Fast shooting machines". At least that is the hebrew translation. These machines where used both for siege and for defense.
Does anyone know what these machines are?
Re: Fast shooting machine - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-27-2010
Possibly the repeating ballista?
Re: Fast shooting machine - D B Campbell - 02-27-2010
Quote:Josephus Flavius writes about the romans using "Fast shooting machines". At least that is the hebrew translation.That's very interesting. Can you post the precise reference, please?
I thought we might be in Dando-Collins-Land again, because he has certainly fallen for this peculiar terminology: in Mark Antony's Heroes.
But, in fact, I have encountered it before, in a very old article written by Sir Ian Richmond in the 1940s, and I have no idea why he thought that "quick firer" was a reasonable translation of Josephus' oxybeles "sharp-pointed missile (shooter)". Of course, other Greek compounds with oxy- can take on connotations of speed (e.g., oxypous, "sharp-footed", meaning a fast runner; oxypteros, "sharp-winged", possibly implying speed), but only rarely. And the application of an oxy- word to a catapult obviously refers to the sharpness of the missile (thus drawing a distinction with a "blunt" stone), rather than its speed (the stone travels more or less as fast, given its inevitably greater mass -- the arrow has no particular claim to be "quick").
Re: Fast shooting machine - P. Clodius Secundus - 02-27-2010
Quote:Possibly the repeating ballista?
I'd look further into the translation and the context/usage of the phrase "fast shooting" in ancient Hebrew. The polyobolos, actually a repeating catapulta rather than a ballista since it threw bolts not stones, was only mentioned by one source about two hundred years before the Jewish Revolt. Philon mentioned it in a discourse on weapons with novel mechanisms and alternate power sources. IIRC he stated that it was not a particularly effective design and was never widely adopted.
Perhaps Josephus was referring to an updated version of the classic Vitruvian scorpion which replaced the rather cumbersome drum & pins type winch with a pair of independent ratcheted handles as seen on the Cupid Gem. This arrangement allows the rear of the weapon to be lower during winching which gives the operator more mechanical advantage. Just like a modern ratchet wrench helps a mechanic work faster, this might explain the "fast shooting".
Thanks for raising the question. It's an excellent point to consider. Could you please cite, or better yet, post the relavent passage and its translation? It may provide some circumstantial supporting evidence for one of my current projects. Check out my recent "Cupid on Valentines" post here on RAT if you're interested.
Re: Fast shooting machine - MeinPanzer - 02-27-2010
Quote:lyuv:1af7xc75 Wrote:Josephus Flavius writes about the romans using "Fast shooting machines". At least that is the hebrew translation.That's very interesting. Can you post the precise reference, please?
Quote:I'd look further into the translation and the context/usage of the phrase "fast shooting" in ancient Hebrew.
Considering that the OP is from Israel, it seems very likely that he is referring to the modern Hebrew translation of this word from Josephus.
Re: Fast shooting machine - D B Campbell - 02-27-2010
Quote:Considering that the OP is from Israel, it seems very likely that he is referring to the modern Hebrew translation of this word from Josephus.Doh! Maybe just a translation of this misguided version, then.
As I said above, the word Josephus uses is just the usual Greek word for an arrow-shooting catapult.
Re: Fast shooting machine - P. Clodius Secundus - 02-28-2010
Too bad, It would have been a nice tie-in with my Cupid project. I'd still like to see the original citation, and anything else for that matter, relating to wood-framers that falls between the Augustan and Flavian periods.
Re: Fast shooting machine - lyuv - 02-28-2010
I reffered to Flavius's book on the jews war against the romans. Originaly it was written in Hebrew and Greek, but the Hebrew version didn't survive. However, the current translation is from 1923, which makes it almost as archaic as the original, in "comprehensibility". At that time, the Hebrew language was "frozen" and unused for 2,000 years, so any writer and translator would have to juggle with the poor vocabulary and/or make up words and phrases (very common).
And to the matter - in that book the "fast shooting machine" is mentioned many times, as do other war machines, but it's function or construction is never given. In the fifth book, chapter 6 second paragraph is says (beware - translation upon translation) "between the ramps he placed the shooters and the bow gunners, and in front of them the fast shooting machines and the spears throwers (catapults) and the stones throwing machines (ballistas)".
It seems the translator crossed catapults and ballistas, but nevertheless, our mystery machine is probably neither. From the lack of explanation I learn these machines where common knowledge at the time. Is this true for the repeating balista (scorpion?), or was it a passing curiosity?
BTW, in the quote I gave, are mentioned "shooters" and "bow gunners" (again, my translation upon translation). These are mentioned in many places, and seem to be foot soldiers, rather than machines. What are they
The translator uses for "bow gunners" the term that nowdays means crossbow. this term wasn't in existence in 1923, and as far as I know, the romans didn't use hand held crossbows.
If someone has the original greek, it could help.
Re: Fast shooting machine - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-28-2010
I am guessing here, but 'bow gunners' is probably archers?
I am still curious about this 'fast shooting machine', and apologise for my mention of a repeating balista, when it should be
repeating catapult? :oops:
As you say the translation mentions all three as seperate entities in the same passage? Then they are three different machines, unless I
am misunderstanding you.
Re: Fast shooting machine - ground pounder - 02-28-2010
my translation reads this way -
'he placed those who shot darts and the archers in the midst of the banks that were then rising; before whom he placed those engines that threw javelins, and darts and stones'
Sounds like a difference in translation, specifically translating of military terminology. Couldn't find anything about 'fast shooting machines'.
Re: Fast shooting machine - P. Clodius Secundus - 02-28-2010
Quote:It seems the translator crossed catapults and ballistas, but nevertheless, our mystery machine is probably neither. From the lack of explanation I learn these machines where common knowledge at the time. Is this true for the repeating balista (scorpion?), or was it a passing curiosity?
BTW, in the quote I gave, are mentioned "shooters" and "bow gunners" (again, my translation upon translation). These are mentioned in many places, and seem to be foot soldiers, rather than machines. What are they
The translator uses for "bow gunners" the term that nowdays means crossbow. this term wasn't in existence in 1923, and as far as I know, the romans didn't use hand held crossbows.
If someone has the original greek, it could help.
Ground Pounder's translation (see last post) makes much more sense. It breaks things down into five subgroups, each of which was known in the Roman Army of the time.
Archers - Troops armed with traditional hand-held bows.
Shooters - These could be individulas using small hand-held belly-cocked wood-framed weapons which are suggested by the finds at Xanten, Elginhaugh, and the Tomb of Vedinnus. They were never described by any of the engineer/authors like Vitruvius or Philon, so some discount their existence. They are roughly equivalent in scale and employment to the medieval crossbow. (I may be misunderstanding your post, but the term crossbow was definitely in use in 1923. Sir Ralph Payne-Gallwey used it as the title of his difinitive book on the subject in about 1906 or so. It's an excellent work, although I fear that the chapters on roman artillery are greatly flawed and responsible for many of our modern misconceptions.)
Thse two classes are place on high ground where they could presumably fire down, cover, and suport the larger crew served and stand mounted weapons listed next. They could be...
Machines that shoot javelins - the larger classic scorpions.
Engines that shoot darts - smaller scorpions (euthyones) or maybe even ballistas (palintones) throwing shorter and more robust bolts rather than arrows or javelins.
Machines that shoot stones - traditionally assumed to be two-armed ballistas rather than single-armed onagers, but either/both are possibilities.
Re: Fast shooting machine - lyuv - 02-28-2010
Quote:my translation reads this way -
'he placed those who shot darts and the archers in the midst of the banks that were then rising; before whom he placed those engines that threw javelins, and darts and stones'
Sounds like a difference in translation, specifically translating of military terminology. Couldn't find anything about 'fast shooting machines'.
Not realy different. Sounds like both translators lack in military terminology knowledge. "Your" translation says that between the banks where BOTH "those who shot darts" and "archers". I fail to see the difference...
Regarding the machine - your translation reffers (like "mine") to three machines throwing: Javelis, darts and stones. So the fast machine is probably the darts shooter (at least in the translator's mind).
I did find the greek original, along with latin translation. In latin it's translated to "scorpion". The colors represent words in latin to which I found the greek original. So the underline is about where the origin to "scorpion" is. But nowhere does it says "scorpion" in greek. perhaps one of you can properly translate it. And for that matter, also solve the archers/shooters enigma.
Re: Fast shooting machine - D B Campbell - 02-28-2010
Quote:In the fifth book, chapter 6 second paragraph is says (beware - translation upon translation) "between the ramps he placed the shooters and the bow gunners, and in front of them the fast shooting machines and the spears throwers (catapults) and the stones throwing machines (ballistas)".As usual, it is better to go back to the original recieved text of Josephus, to try and work out what he meant, rather than relying on an English translation of a Hebrew translation of an English translation of a Greek text.
At Jewish War 5.263 (which seems to be the relevant passage), the standard Greek text reads:
"Having arranged the army into three parts for (the purpose of) the siegeworks, he [i.e. Titus] set up between the embankments the javelinmen (akontistai) and archers (toxotai) and, in front of these, the arrow-shooters (oxybeleis) and catapults (katapeltai) and the stone-projecting machines (lithoboloi mechanai), in order to keep away those of the enemy who were charging out [i.e. out from the besieged town] against the siegeworks and to prevent those on the walls [i.e. of the besieged town] from harrassing (them)."
(I have bracketed some original Greek technical terms, and also words that aren't in the Greek but which are required to clarify the sense.)
So you can see that your Hebrew translator has misunderstood (a) javelinmen as "shooters", (b) archers as "bow gunners", © arrow-shooting catapults as "fast shooting machines", and (d) catapults as "spear throwers". But he got the stone-projecting ballistas right!
The passage raises an interesting question regarding types of catapults. It is common for ancient authors to divide arrow-shooters into two categories; this is perhaps on the basis of size, so Josephus' oxybeleis would be (in Latin) scorpiones, while his katapeltai would be larger heavy-duty arrow-shooting catapultae.
Re: Fast shooting machine - P. Clodius Secundus - 02-28-2010
Quote:
The passage raises an interesting question regarding types of catapults. It is common for ancient authors to divide arrow-shooters into two categories; this is perhaps on the basis of size, so Josephus' oxybeleis would be (in Latin) scorpiones, while his katapeltai would be larger heavy-duty arrow-shooting catapultae.
Thanks Duncan, that clears things up considerably. So the real question remains where to place the distinction between scorpions and catapults. Were engines with washers 75-85mm classes as scorpions, @ 85mm and upwards as catapults, and those with washers 35-45mm as scorpio minors? The known finds seem to roughly fall into those categories although there doesn't seem to as much of an easily definable gap between the the larger groups as there is between them and the smaller washers. I would attribute that gap to the significant differences in function between hand held weapons and artillery pieces as we understand them. There is a similar leap in calibers among modern weapons. If you're restricting the mobility and adding complexity with winches and stands you might as well add a few more milimeters and get some real firepower out of it. Once you've added those items the question shifts to how big a projectile do you really need to service the target.
Re: Fast shooting machine - D B Campbell - 02-28-2010
Quote:So the real question remains where to place the distinction between scorpions and catapults.That's the $64,000 question! Marsden thought it made sense to place the watershed at the 3-span calibre. Not based on any practical considerations, though. The 3-span is probably the last one that you can lug around; anything bigger starts to become rather cumbersome, as you've noticed Randi.