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+--- Thread: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield (/showthread.php?tid=16392)
Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-03-2010
No one seems to be doing a Light Armed Cohort (LAC) impression. Reeactment is growing to the point that it will be possible to have enough troops on the field to do some LAC in addition to the regular Infantry and auxillia. Also reenactment standard bearers use mostly Parmas while a lot of the grave stones of Standard bearers seem to show oval shields (usually slung on the back so we can't see the front.) Here are drawings of my design for a combination LAC and Standard bearers curved cliptus. I have shown removable brass pins for fastening the boss and an iron handle so it can be attached vertically for easier holding of multiple javelins for LAC troops. Boss uses elements from the two known square bosses
but simplified a bit for easier production. The domed part is a bit larger than the originals to allow for larger modern hand sizes.[attachment=2:3pn76f8z]<!-- ia2 shielddrawing.JPG<!-- ia2 [/attachment:3pn76f8z]
It is an interpretation of the shield pattern of Gnaeus Musius, aquilifer of Legio XIV Gemina.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Epictetus - 02-03-2010
Very nice! I wish I was artistic enough to do something like that. Is that a smiley face above the bull in the bottom image? :wink:
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Peroni - 02-03-2010
If you are recreating the shield of Musius - do not use the Tyne Boss from Legio VIII! The zodiac symbol of the XIIII GMV is a Capricorn, not a bull.
Musius' shield is also curved and not flat.
There are also many surviving examples of iron grip bars of the bifurcated form.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-03-2010
Quote:If you are recreating the shield of Musius - do not use the Tyne Boss from Legio VIII! The zodiac symbol of the XIIII GMV is a Capricorn, not a bull.
Musius' shield is also curved and not flat.
There are also many surviving examples of iron grip bars of the bifurcated form.
It is intended for a generic unit shield hence the more common bull instead of the Capricorn. The spot for the Legio number is left blank to be filled in. The shield is curved with a shallow chord of 8cm I just can't draw well enough to depict it curved! Anyone have any photos of surviving iron grip bars?
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Peroni - 02-03-2010
Possibly a plain boss would be better then rather than a zodiacal symbol? :wink:
I'll get a picture of the bifurcated grip bar to you John with some other options.
see here for the correct rivets... They are not solid domes as in your drawing..probably secured with a split-pin.
![[Image: shieldbossfasteners.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/shieldbossfasteners.jpg)
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-03-2010
Rivets revised! (Thanks Adrian)
Carry strap drawing added.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-03-2010
Quote:Very nice! I wish I was artistic enough to do something like that. Is that a smiley face above the bull in the bottom image? :wink:
I wish I had some art skill too. I found photos and put the paper on the computer screen and traced a lot. Also wore out an eraser or two!
I think the ancient smiley face developed from the quarter moon and stars depictions.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Peroni - 02-03-2010
Two points of note John..
The shanks of the boss fittings are flat, not cylindrical. You may wish to point this out to whoever is making this item for you. (see the drawings)
Also, any fitting that will hold a carrying strap needs to be securely riveted to the shield board - simple nails will just pull out (sometimes even if they are clenched the other side) .. Trust me! Tried it.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Doc - 02-03-2010
Peroni,
I do not see a problem in using the Tyne or the Vindonissa boses considering that these two are the best examples (that I know of) of square umbos. I do not think that there is any evidence to suggest that no one else used such umbos and that only the Legion you mentioned did. Substituting the bull on either of those bosses and replacing it with a capricorn is plausible.
Peroni, would you happen to have a better picture of the umbo you posted? Is it iron or copper alloy?
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-03-2010
Quote:Two points of note John..
The shanks of the boss fittings are flat, not cylindrical. You may wish to point this out to whoever is making this item for you. (see the drawings)
Also, any fitting that will hold a carrying strap needs to be securely riveted to the shield board - simple nails will just pull out (sometimes even if they are clenched the other side) .. Trust me! Tried it.
Thanks! replacing rivet drawing! Adding drawing of detail for carry strap fittings!
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Matt Lukes - 02-03-2010
Hold on a second- what makes you think those odd rivets are 'correct' for scuta? The photo inset (Tafel118) seems to show what would be the expected long pointed shank bent over type nails- is the suggestion that this is not normal? And all the umbones I've ever seen images of have small round holes for their mounting nails- the wide, flat shanks of those bolt things don't fit that at all.
And indeed since MVSIVS' shield has a square umbo, the DVBITATVS or Vindonissa certainly seems a reasonable choice if the decoration is altered to reflect that proper to the unit you're doing John...
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-04-2010
The intent of using the pins is to have the umbo and handle easily removable. The Umbo for cleaning and the handle so it can be used either vertically or horizontally at the owners
whim. The alternative to pins is bolts and nuts which are so rare in the record as to have unlikely to have been used often for umbos. It is POSSIBLE bolts were used on square umbos
since not many more umbos than nuts or bolts have been found but it is much more likely that round and square umbos shared a common attachment method which may have been pins when clenched nails were not used.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Doc - 02-04-2010
John,
Matt Lukes was not saying that those things are bolts. He was only making an analogy to what they looked like. Moreover, No one was talking about nuts and bolts per se only clenched nails and if you look at the picture Peroni posted, those nails on that umbo are bent. If you used clenched nails it would be as accurate as you can get.
Also, do you really think that they wanted to have some kind of possible swivel in their grip secured by pins? Supposing that during some battle the pins came loose and the shield handle and umbo began to move? It would appear to me that this part of the shield would have to be the firmest for balance and control.
Did the Romans use these split pins for scuta? Possibly, but it does not seem practical for battle only for cleaning which, for the umbo, can be done directly on the shield. I am quite sure that the umbo was damaged during battle considering that their gauge thickness was not the greatest. It would appear to me that replacement was more likely than anything else.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - Matt Lukes - 02-04-2010
Quote:The intent of using the pins is to have the umbo and handle easily removable. ...
Yes, I understand the idea John, but I don't know of any reason to believe that the umbo was ever easily 'removable'- that has to be established positively before components that would allow it can be theorized on; OR the components that would allow it have to be positively linked with umbones, so that this can be theorized as a reason for the design. Just saying they're 'correct' over nails needs supporting- it's a statement of fact and actually says nails are wrong, which absolutely needs proof. The inset photo seems to show nails, which would then show nails to be a perfectly acceptable method- just why the bolts are thought to be an alternative is the question.
Re: Light Armed Cohorts and Standard bearers shield - jkaler48 - 02-05-2010
Quote:jkaler48:1ajj4wc2 Wrote:The intent of using the pins is to have the umbo and handle easily removable. ...
Yes, I understand the idea John, but I don't know of any reason to believe that the umbo was ever easily 'removable'- that has to be established positively before components that would allow it can be theorized on; OR the components that would allow it have to be positively linked with umbones, so that this can be theorized as a reason for the design. Just saying they're 'correct' over nails needs supporting- it's a statement of fact and actually says nails are wrong, which absolutely needs proof. The inset photo seems to show nails, which would then show nails to be a perfectly acceptable method- just why the bolts are thought to be an alternative is the question.
You are correct about the known attachment methods. Indeed full disclosure when selling a shield made this way should be made about any attachments that are not supported by the current evidence. I wonder if the the pins shown in the drawing above were found in Legionary contexts and why it was assumed that they were umbo attachments and also
what other possible use they may have had.