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+--- Thread: Provocator Helmet (/showthread.php?tid=16135)
Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-01-2009
Has anyone out there got a photo of a repro provocator helmet. I need to see all dimensions as I fancy I can make one.
Re: Provocator Helmet - jvrjenivs - 12-01-2009
There are 3 good ones avaliable:
[url:3tu0e1v8]http://www.hephestus.net/elmo%20provocator.htm[/url] (this one has some bad things on it, as it seems he has seen the repair as a decorative element)
[url:3tu0e1v8]http://www.armorymarek.com/romer--celtic--greeg[/url] Halfway the page are 4 pics
[url:3tu0e1v8]http://www.gdfbglobal.com/popup.php?pcid=578&cid=172[/url]
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-02-2009
Thank you very much for that I have been hunting everywhere for pictures like that...Now where's me hammer
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-02-2009
Just scanning the real helmet. Do you think the crescent is a repair?
If you study the crescent there is a distinct cut, possibly from a sword blow to the right close to the rivet. This would appear to have caused the fracture.
If the crescent IS a repair why rivet the right side so close to the fracture? Logically the 'repair has served no useful purpose because it has not pulled the fracture together.
Obviously I have not seen any other real helmets yet but the crescent looks to be a feature or strengthening to the crown insitu prior to the break.
Looking at the break in the iron. I would have formed a band and riveted it lower down the back of the helmet to draw the break together then beaten a disc and riveted it over the crown thus making a more robust repair.
Anyway. Im going to strip an old deepeeka helmet and use that as a base. Ill have to beat out the neck flutes and weld up the ear holes... Make a neck guard..cheek plates, eye holes. work out how it opens and closes.
This could be interesting... Watch this space.
Re: Provocator Helmet - jvrjenivs - 12-03-2009
I see what you mean about that being not a repair. Hadn't looked into this helmet that good, actually, but always read it was a repair. Anyway, will check with better pics when I'm at home. At least it is interesting.
And I'm also looking forward to your pics and how the process will be going. I once tried to rebuilt a Deepeeka Thraex helmet, but that brass (if it is brass at all) was from such a bad quality that I only destroyed the piece instead of fixing it. Good luck!
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-03-2009
Well there is nothing better than a little detective work!
I wont be needing the deepeeka brass on this shell so thats a bonus.
At the moment its freezing in my workshop so I wont be doing much this week. I will try to remember to take piccys as i progress.
Re: Provocator Helmet - Olaf - 12-04-2009
The metal from Deepeeka helmets is also much to thin for anything but mock combat.
Which helmet are you planing to use as a base?
The Augustan Provocator evolved out of the Imperial Gallic, as the Gallic A was used by Provocators during the Republic.
So I guess any helmet of the Imperial Gallic type would be a good base.
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-04-2009
This is a good old heavy base and will lend itself well to a good old bashing after I have beefed it up a bit.
Oh and by the way I dont intend to let anyone get close enough to hit me on the head
Re: Provocator Helmet - M. Demetrius - 12-05-2009
Quote:I dont intend to let anyone get close enough to hit me on the headThat's a very good theoretical strategy! Odds are, your opponents will attempt to find a way to get close enough to hit you somewhere.... :wink:
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-05-2009
Quote:There are 3 good ones avaliable:
[url:3izu4gau]http://www.hephestus.net/elmo%20provocator.htm[/url] (this one has some bad things on it, as it seems he has seen the repair as a decorative element)
[url:3izu4gau]http://www.armorymarek.com/romer--celtic--greeg[/url] Halfway the page are 4 pics
[url:3izu4gau]http://www.gdfbglobal.com/popup.php?pcid=578&cid=172[/url]
Hi, Jvrjenivs,
Have a look at the pictures of the original helmet. Study the eye pieces carefully on all three pictures. Look at the throat guard below the chin you can see a rivet.
The eye pieces do not match in each picture and one picture has no rivet on the front of the neck guard. The designs do not seem as ornate on one skull as they do on the other. They look like seperate helmets...wierd :?:
Also how the hell do they open the face visor?? I need a picture of how that works or Im going to have to inprovise and I want to avoid that. I have done some surfing but no luck.
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-05-2009
Quote:I thought I had replied to you but lost it somewhere. Oh yes...I have been free fighting for a few years using most edged weapons. I have rarely used a shield or buckler. However with this type of hobby accidents can happen.Quote:I dont intend to let anyone get close enough to hit me on the headThat's a very good theoretical strategy! Odds are, your opponents will attempt to find a way to get close enough to hit you somewhere.... :wink:
I/we only fight ratified opponents who are associates. There have been several visits to the hospital..( unfortunately two of my opponents :twisted: )....so far I have been lucky but, nearly had a duelling scar beneath my left eye. I was very disappointed when it healed and disappeared after a few days.
I am getting older now and am slowing a little.
Re: Provocator Helmet - jvrjenivs - 12-05-2009
Quote:Also how the hell do they open the face visor?? I need a picture of how that works or Im going to have to inprovise and I want to avoid that. I have done some surfing but no luck.
Don't have my books at hand to look what was found in Pompeii, but hopefully will be able to look that up tomorrow. Anyway about the opening, as far as I remember (I looked into that and made detail pictures some months ago), the 'mask' is made out of 2 pieces with hinges just like on military helmets on the sides. There is also a hinge with removable pin to lock the eye-visors in place (on the top of them). On the bottom they are slided into a slot. Hope this helps. Will try to dig up detail pictures of one of the pompeii helmets I did to be able to study these details at home. But as they're still on my old PC, which I haven't totally recovered, that may take some time.
Re: Provocator Helmet - muskitear - 12-05-2009
Quote:muskitear:26h7vii1 Wrote:Also how the hell do they open the face visor?? I need a picture of how that works or Im going to have to inprovise and I want to avoid that. I have done some surfing but no luck.
Don't have my books at hand to look what was found in Pompeii, but hopefully will be able to look that up tomorrow. Anyway about the opening, as far as I remember (I looked into that and made detail pictures some months ago), the 'mask' is made out of 2 pieces with hinges just like on military helmets on the sides. There is also a hinge with removable pin to lock the eye-visors in place (on the top of them). On the bottom they are slided into a slot. Hope this helps. Will try to dig up detail pictures of one of the pompeii helmets I did to be able to study these details at home. But as they're still on my old PC, which I haven't totally recovered, that may take some time.
Ok thanks for that Ill await your reply
Re: Provocator Helmet - john m roberts - 12-06-2009
Quote:jvrjenivs:3uxo2b9h Wrote:There are 3 good ones avaliable:
[url:3uxo2b9h]http://www.hephestus.net/elmo%20provocator.htm[/url] (this one has some bad things on it, as it seems he has seen the repair as a decorative element)
[url:3uxo2b9h]http://www.armorymarek.com/romer--celtic--greeg[/url] Halfway the page are 4 pics
[url:3uxo2b9h]http://www.gdfbglobal.com/popup.php?pcid=578&cid=172[/url]
Hi, Jvrjenivs,
Have a look at the pictures of the original helmet. Study the eye pieces carefully on all three pictures. Look at the throat guard below the chin you can see a rivet.
The eye pieces do not match in each picture and one picture has no rivet on the front of the neck guard. The designs do not seem as ornate on one skull as they do on the other. They look like seperate helmets...wierd :?:
Also how the hell do they open the face visor?? I need a picture of how that works or Im going to have to inprovise and I want to avoid that. I have done some surfing but no luck.
Those are, in fact, two different provocator helmets from Pompeii. Notice also that one has an eagle on the forepeak, the other an armed man or god. And the small plate at the top of the center join is inscribed on one with a simple X, on the other with a third, horizontal stroke. Notice that both have small holes at the bottom inner corners of the face-plates. Probably, a leather thong was passed through these holes to tie the visor shut. With the elaborate construction of these helmets you would expect a mechanical latch, but sometimes the Romans did strange things.
Re: Provocator Helmet - Olaf - 12-07-2009
As Jhon says, these are two different helmets.
More pictures of the various Provocator helmets you can find here:
link from old RAT
They are from fellow RAT member Aurelianus and were gathered because of this thread in the Marketplace:
link from old RAT
The Secutor reproduction on the photobucket page shows how the visor halves open on Gladiator helmets.
You have to keep in mind that the 1st century gladiator helmets evolved from helmets that just had cheekpieces without a visor.
The cheekpieces grew over time to cover much of the face as well and eventully met each other in the middle.
Lastly the eye holes were coverd with exchangable grates.