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The gladius and its effect in history - Binoy Fernandez - 10-14-2009
Hey all, my first post here.
I'm starting a project which will, hopefully, see me doing a custom mainz gladius in a few months. The part of my project I'm on is, colloquially speaking, the research part. I'm trying to figure out where I should start with this, and I guess the best place would be to start learning about Roman history and, more specifically, the Roman military. Depending on how this project goes, I'd like to expand it into a Roman sword collection and do something similar with the hispaniensis, fulham, and pompeii types. I'm not sure if I should add the spatha to that list, but now I'm getting ahead of myself.
I've seen that there are a lot of reproductions out on the market - Deepeeka, Kris Cutlery, Albion, etc.... One of the things I'm looking for here is value appreciation, and I've read a lot of reviews of the various manufacturers to the point where I couldn't stop looking at the inaccuracies if I got one. :roll: I see a lot of you use Mark Morrow for the blade and then Matt Lukes for the hilt and fittings, and that may be the way to go, but I want to learn about what I'm getting too, which is why I've decided to go this route.
So far I've purchased one book: Roman Military Equipment: From the Punic Wars to the Fall of Rome. Has anyone here read it? If so, what did you think of it? What other books / websites / sources would you recommend I hit?
Also, if I'm totally off my rocker with this idea let me know that too.
hock: Thanks.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Neuraleanus - 10-14-2009
Quote:I've seen that there are a lot of reproductions out on the market - Deepeeka, Kris Cutlery, Albion, etc.... One of the things I'm looking for here is value appreciation, and I've read a lot of reviews of the various manufacturers to the point where I couldn't stop looking at the inaccuracies if I got one. :roll: I see a lot of you use Mark Morrow for the blade and then Matt Lukes for the hilt and fittings, and that may be the way to go, but I want to learn about what I'm getting too, which is why I've decided to go this route.While I cannot say anything concerning "value appreciation", I'm a reenactor and I buy kit that is the most authentic that I can afford, it all depends upon how much money you're willing to spend. Mark Morrow makes excellent blades and Matt Lukes will do a fantastic job finishing the sword off. I'm not familiar with the process Mark uses to make his blades, they look good though. Albion gladii are also excellent, I own one of their 1st generation Mainz patterns. Their blades on shaped on a CNC machine followed by heat treating and then the hand assembly of the hilt components using wood and bone. Deepeeka can be good, but their quality control is sometimes poor. Also due to export issues from India all of their blades are blunt, reenactor grade. All of these reproductions look right. I would avoid Kris Cutlery and Museum Replicas.
Going to extremes, if you have to have a gladius made the way the romans made them, with a forge welded blade, not pattern welded, but with a softer iron core and a harder edge heat welded on, you'll have to go to Europe and be prepared to pay REALLY big bucks, as far as I know, many thousands of US dollars.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Lýsandros - 10-14-2009
A high quality custom reproduction of a Gladius made in the original way can cost anywhere from 500-2000 EUR, depending on the decorations and finishing. At least at my friend's smithy.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - jvrjenivs - 10-14-2009
I totally agree with all that is said above. Most important factor when choosing which sword to get is your budget and what you want. More expensive is not always better, but a custom made blade to your specs is of course more expensive as a Indian of-the-shelf blade of less quality steel.
You also say you bought a copy if B&C2. In my opinion that is the best you could do to start your research about Roman military equipment. It give you a great introduction to the theme and show the different periods and their fashions in military stuff. As you're mostly interested in swords, I would also recommend for the next book the recent published book by Christian Miks: Studies on the Roman armament with swords in the Roman Imperial Period. Although it is in German, it is one of the most comprehensive surveys of Roman swords with a lot of drawings, measurements, etc.
[url:36butbom]http://www.vml.de/e/detail.php?ISBN=978-3-89646-136-0[/url]
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Matt Lukes - 10-14-2009
Welcome to RAT Binoy
It's certainly good to educate yourself before embarking on kit assembly or collecting a particular type of piece, or you run the risk of spending a lot of money on dubious stuff and really shoot yourself in the foot from the get-go. B&C is indeed a good general reference to start with for sure- it's the one most of us have or at least refer to rather often. Miks is the best catalogue, containing virtually all known Roman swords and details about them, but it's also quite an expensive book (it's big)- fortunately, there are a number of people here who have it and doubtless questions you have could be answered. If you're a real sword guy though, it's definitely worth having in the library. You really can't do any better with respect to printed material than these two- Connolly's Greece and Rome at War is another many know, but it's less-specific and is older so does have flaws. Still, it's useful I find. Matt Amt's LEGXX Handbook for Legionaries site is helpful with the generalities as well as.
Other than those though, I can't immediately think of any references I'd suggest apart from a few websites that have great images of actual artifacts, but you have to already know what you're looking at to glean anything from them. Really RAT is your overall best source- not to pat ourselves on the back- because many of us here have done the research you have in mind so can easily answer questions for you that might otherwise be rather more difficult and time-consuming to discover for yourself. Since I make very high-accuracy recreation swords (not just handles for others' blades), I've studied the extant artifacts and details quite extensively so can cerainly help you with any questions, and I'm certainly not the only one. Robert Wimmers and Tony Drake here are also big blade guys, just to name a couple.
So you can use the search function at the top right (across from the forum logo) to see if something specific you want to know about has been discussed before and if you get no joy, post the question here or in Reenactment & Recreation (better for questions on recreations), or even feel free to Private Message or email folks- we're always happy to help.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Binoy Fernandez - 10-15-2009
Hey, thanks for the feedback guys, I really appreciate it. I'm still waiting on some books, but it's good to know that the one I have gotten is worth getting. I've read through several posts already which referred to "Miks," glad I know what that reference is to now. So even if I don't speak/read German it is still worth getting? I suppose even in that case I can find someone to translate it bit by bit, it looks like it is a beefy book.
So I've seen the Legio XX site, the info on it is actually one of the reasons why I decided to take a step back and do some research before doing this thing. Once I get this sword, I think it would be neat if I could actually explain the history of it and its impact on history and sound like I know what I'm talking about.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Matt Lukes - 10-16-2009
Well the catalog portion of the book doesn't require that much translation- just a few key terms (length, width, tang, etc.) will allow you to get the specs for any blade. The primary text is rather more involved so if you have no German, you'll spend a lot of time using Google Translator or some such thing.
But really the 'impact on history' isn't dependent on the swords themselves- that's VERY broad and include pretty much everything since you can't say this or that was due solely or even perhaps largely to the sword. There are lots of discussions about the nature of the swords themselves- a recent thread right in this section about the Mainz vs. the Pompeii should tell you a lot- but your basic question is really somewhat meaningless; were it to be 'the SWORD (in general) and its effect on history', that'd be reasonable, but not the gladius in particular. The Romans lost LOTS of battles, so their swords or anything else certainly weren't ultimate by any means.
If you want to ask just why the Romans used short swords rather than long swords, well that's a reasonable question- and has been discussed ad nauseum here for sure :wink: Or, again, what a particular type was good at, etc. (the recent thread I mentioned goes into this a good bit really).
And in truth, a proper reconstruction- one made to the same dimensions, same materials, etc. as the real thing can tell you a lot too- so you'll certainly learn more after that as well; when I made my first proper G. mainzensis, I was amazed at how different it was than I expected, even knowing dimensions and so on.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - M. Demetrius - 10-16-2009
And in keeping with my habit of pointing out what's obvious, it wasn't so much the gladius (in its several variants over the centuries) as it was the man holding it, that is, his different and much more effective training. Most everybody had short swords, and they were all effective in close-in fighting. It was the Roman military discipline, imho, that made the Roman soldier have his effect on society/history. But, of course, that's a little divergent from the topic at hand. :wink:
Re: The gladius and its effect in history - Retógenes - 10-16-2009
BTW, if anyone here has buyed one gladius replica, could you please tell me where I can find the best one? I'm interested in a gladius hispaniensis, but I don't like the republican/pompeii style.
I've found horrible replicas that would be rusted in less than 3 months! :roll:
Re: The gladius and its effect in history - jvrjenivs - 10-16-2009
Quote:BTW, if anyone here has buyed one gladius replica, could you please tell me where I can find the best one? I'm interested in a gladius hispaniensis, but I don't like the republican/pompeii style.
I've found horrible replicas that would be rusted in less than 3 months! :roll:
Of course they can rust very fast. High polishing will slow down it a bit, but they aren't of stainless steel, so you have to look after them!
ANyways, as you are pretty sure you know what kind of blade you want you can follow the above mentioned methods. The best off the shelf Hispaniensis, in my opinion, is the one from Armillum (see here.
Better (but also more expensive) would be to get a custom made blade just the way you want it (following the original you choose). There are topics enough on this board wo tell you about the possibilities. (The most rated combination is Mark Marrow/Matt Lukes) but there are many more that can do you a good one. Just search on the name of the supplier or ask here, if you want to get reviews. I don't think there is one that is the best one. All have their pro's and contra's.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Binoy Fernandez - 10-17-2009
Quote:But really the 'impact on history' isn't dependent on the swords themselves- that's VERY broad and include pretty much everything since you can't say this or that was due solely or even perhaps largely to the sword. There are lots of discussions about the nature of the swords themselves- a recent thread right in this section about the Mainz vs. the Pompeii should tell you a lot- but your basic question is really somewhat meaningless; were it to be 'the SWORD (in general) and its effect on history', that'd be reasonable, but not the gladius in particular. The Romans lost LOTS of battles, so their swords or anything else certainly weren't ultimate by any means.
Okay, "impact on history" was a poor choice of words, there. I'll see if I can put my line of thinking out here for clarification. When I actually saw for myself some examples of Roman engineering (not just reading or pictures, but actually being able to see it) I was blown away. The Roman's were brilliant engineers, and I can only imagine that any changes they made to the gladius was done because they felt it would better serve the legions in their battles - so did the style of the gladius have an impact on military tactics and strategy? I think that we can say it did in the case of the spatha, but what about the change from Hispaniensis to Mainz, or the more subtle change from the Mainz to Fulham, and then finally the parallel edges of the Pompeii? Did different units in the legion use different types of gladii?
I think that if the style of the gladius had any sort of influence on the military then it did have influence on history, though that might be only in the most oblique sense.
Okay, now I don't want to give the impression that the gladius is the ultimate weapon or that Rome won every battle they used it in. We can safely say that they didn't, and it would take a lot of battles to bring the empire to its knees. I've read De Re Militari (got it e-book) and Vegetius seemed to be writing towards the twilight of the Empire about how the legions had fallen out of the practices of the "ancients" and needed to revive them. Did the evolution of the standard weapon for close quarters fighting - the gladius - have anything to do with that? Did making it into more of a thruster than cutter with the Pompeii style (not saying that it wasn't a good cutter, but I don't think it was as good at cutting as the mainz or fulham) act as a limiting factor in how it was used? Did making the longer spatha the standard issue require the legions to have wider spacing between soldiers, making them less effective in their traditional style? I dunno, heh, and I hope some of these are good questions here, but if the changing style of the gladius did have some sort of effect on military strategy and tactics then it did, in my mind, have some impact, or rather, influence, on history.So hopefully I'm making some more sense here with my "history" comment. I don't want to give the impression, though, that changes to the gladius were the driving force behind changes in the military - nothing of the sort - but I am interested in learning how it affected and influenced the Roman fighting.
I'll have to do a more focused search for the Mainz vs Pompeii thread. I've found a lot of interesting ones and am feeling kind of overwhelmed with my rather broad search string of "gladius."
hock: So, I'm gonna ask you guys to bear with me as I get started here.
Re: The gladius and its effect in history - Tiberius Clodius Corvinus - 10-17-2009
Hi Binoy,
and first of all ...welcome to RAT.
As to your question I don't think that looking at an isloted piece of kit and assessing its impact will be of much help. And I think further that the gladius or any other item didn't really change the fighting style. It's rather the other way around, because every piece of kit on its given place is a reaction and adaption to demands on the battlefield and the entire context (cultural influences, availability of ressources, military fighting traditions, equipment of enemies ..).That's not to discredit good ol' gladius, it certainly made close quarter fighting "easier" and it might have given in some individual cases the edge to Romans, however by far more important is the ability of legionaries to fight with discipline in formations and to use their respective equipment effectively. Others might disagree with me here, but in general I doubt that Romans lost or won their battles because of long or short swords.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Matt Lukes - 10-17-2009
Quote:"impact on history" was a poor choice of words, there. I'll see if I can put my line of thinking out here for clarification. When I actually saw for myself some examples of Roman engineering (not just reading or pictures, but actually being able to see it) I was blown away. The Roman's were brilliant engineers, and I can only imagine that any changes they made to the gladius was done because they felt it would better serve the legions in their battles - so did the style of the gladius have an impact on military tactics and strategy? I think that we can say it did in the case of the spatha, but what about the change from Hispaniensis to Mainz, or the more subtle change from the Mainz to Fulham, and then finally the parallel edges of the Pompeii? Did different units in the legion use different types of gladii?
Right, okay- I wasn't being pedantic, just clarifying what you could reasonably expect to find answers for :wink: Looking at the evolution of the Roman sword, for example, is definitely a more achievable goal- although expect a good deal to be speculatory since there's not so much evidence for a lot of reasons 'why'.
The thread I mentioned about Mainz vs. Pompeii does provide useful speculation about the features vs. use vs. othe factors for those two major types, but again it is likely rather more complex than just changing designs to better serve in battle; there are still today economic pressures, political pressures and so on that affect such things as well as performance, and surely there were then as well. In specific cases where there's a major change- such as long sword to short- it's easy to consider tactics to be a major force. Obviously if those changed to be close-in, a long sword isn't going to be of nearly so much use as a short one. But there are the issues of the Greeks already having used rather short swords a very long time before the Romans, yet the Celts preferred the long sword and, judging by the name, are the source of the Gladius hispaniensis. The spatha, being suggested to be cavalry weapon during the time of the infantry gladius, is logically longer given the necessity for reach on horseback, but it became the standard infantry weapon again in the 3rd or 4th century I think it was, so really the short gladius may be considered a relatively short-term, intervening style.
One thing to clarify is that the Fulham is not a specific type of gladius- it's at best a subtype, but having compared actual size photographs of it and 'classic' Mainz blades, I don't agree there's any significant difference; one side of the Fulham sword appears waisted and I suspect the one that looks to have the straight edge some suggest is a definiing factor is actually due to damage. Really, only major differences are logically used to define types- there's a lot of variation among types that is dubiously considered some kind of purpose design; it's very difficult sometimes to determine just what is design, and what's regional variation, individual smith or fabrica variation, etc.- particularly when there aren't many examples to judge from. Plus different people will consider different factors as important or not, so sometimes agreement may not be so straightforward. Myself, as I said, prefer to restrict differentiation to significant features- it's easier that way to control for the small variations one might expect from a non-industrialized system (where variation still creeps in- just look at WWII infantry weapons, for example).
Quote:Did making it into more of a thruster than cutter with the Pompeii style (not saying that it wasn't a good cutter, but I don't think it was as good at cutting as the mainz or fulham) act as a limiting factor in how it was used? Did making the longer spatha the standard issue require the legions to have wider spacing between soldiers, making them less effective in their traditional style? I dunno, heh, and I hope some of these are good questions here, but if the changing style of the gladius did have some sort of effect on military strategy and tactics then it did, in my mind, have some impact, or rather, influence, on history.
The cutting vs. thrusting issue is one we definitely discussed in the thread I mentioned so you can definitely find some good information on that- as for the spatha question indeed it would seem logical that the longer blade would necessitate an adjustment in spacing, but I hardly think it could be considered less-effective- just different. Although there were likely other aspects to the choice of going back to a long sword, one must surely have been that it was considered better for one reason or another.
Definitely just searching for 'gladius' is going to be a bit problematic with respect to efficiently finding useful information :wink: Better to search for it as a thread title, not just a word in a thread.
Maybe the best way to proceed is to consider a significant question such as tactic changes associated with the infantry spatha, and start unique threads (assuming it hasn't been discussed at length already)- that way you'll get good, undiluted discussion; just one thread like this will travel all over the place and thus not be nearly so useful I should think now or certainly in the future.
Re: Gladii and its effect in history - Binoy Fernandez - 10-17-2009
Quote: Right, okay- I wasn't being pedantic, just clarifying what you could reasonably expect to find answers for :wink: Looking at the evolution of the Roman sword, for example, is definitely a more achievable goal- although expect a good deal to be speculatory since there's not so much evidence for a lot of reasons 'why'.
Yeah, I agree with you. Speculation based on what we do have and conclusions drawn from the re-enactments and projects you all have done is one of the reasons why I joined.
Quote: Maybe the best way to proceed is to consider a significant question such as tactic changes associated with the infantry spatha, and start unique threads (assuming it hasn't been discussed at length already)- that way you'll get good, undiluted discussion; just one thread like this will travel all over the place and thus not be nearly so useful I should think now or certainly in the future.
Yeah, I expect that as I learn more I'll be able to ask much more focused questions. Right now I'm a little like a kid in a candy store
hock: . While I've always been interested in this stuff it's always been more of a passive interest - information absorbed through osmosis and casual reading - and only a month ago or so I decided to go active with it. Don't ask me why it's taken me so long to do it, but once I made that decision I've been like a person obsessed. I've started literally spend hours on end doing nothing but surfing these forums (sbg, sfi, rat, myarmoury) reading up on swords and now, over the past week and a half, about the gladius and the Romans.* My copy of B&C came in today
Re: The gladius and its effect in history - Matt Lukes - 10-22-2009
I think we all know what you mean to one extent or another LOL It was exactly the same for me- a mild interest and then it suddenly took off when I found out how fascinating the various subjects were...