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Leather or linen pteriges? - Tita Iuventia Martia - 09-29-2009
Salvete omnes,
Linen or leather pteriges? What is your personal opinion?
Well, I think that the linen one is more correct than the leather. Here are my arguments, why:
- because its origin in the linen stripes on the Greek armor (Linotorax)
- we can see a white stripes on the mosaics (forinstance in The book Praetorian guard by Boris rankov)
- linen fabric is more comfortable than leather and also lighter to wear
Yes, I know that this arguments are only my personal guesswork, because we have not so much of the evidences about the subarmalis and the pteriges (nothing survived). We know that Romans probably wore some pedding under an armor (we can see it in the reliephs, mosaics, tomb stones etc.) but we are not sure, how the subarmalis looked and designed. Modern reconstructions are only our guesswork. So, no doubt that Romans used a pedding under their armorrs. But from leather or linen...
What is your oppinion about this theme?
Thank you for your answers and regards :-) )
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Magnus - 09-29-2009
A good friend of mine who has Sumner's new book, Roman Military Dress was telling me that Graham detailed a possible find of leather pteryges, as well as showing a sculpture of pteryges that he interprets as being leather.
The rest of the sculptural evidence seems to point at a textile, like linen. I made mine out of heavy felt, that I covered with linen, at least for the longer, rectangular pteryges. The tongue shaped ones I made out of leather.
I used Travis Clark's musculata website as a reference, though sadly it seems to not be online anymore. You can still view most of it here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200712031051 ... /parts.htm
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - jvrjenivs - 09-29-2009
Additional to the already mentioned book by Sumner I would recommend Sumner and D'Amato Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier; That one also host a very interesting discussion on this topic. (but as for now I don't have made up my own mind, so forgive me for not given an answer to your question)
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Tita Iuventia Martia - 09-29-2009
Thank you for your answers so far.
My own pteryges are made from four layers of linen, and the tongue ones for one of my impressions are made of leather.
The reason why I'm asking is that I know that both leather and linen (and some other materials too) are considered having been used for this purpose. So I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions and experiences, both research-based and reenactment based. The linen sounds more likely to me, but leather is also plausible, so while I'm leaning towards linen I can't say this is based on hard facts.
As far as the books you have mentioned, I've had them on my wish list already, and now I have even more reasons to buy them
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-29-2009
I plan on experimenting with buffalo hide, which seems to have the right combination of flexibility and, I hope, strength, for pturgues!
I see no reason why there were not a multitude of materials used for them.....look at the range of material for crests, feathers horse hair,
marsh grass...
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Tita Iuventia Martia - 09-29-2009
Are you sure romans had access to buffalo hide?
wink: 8)
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-29-2009
Of course...never heard of buffalo mozzarella....
I imagine they did, as buffallo are found in the middle east and northern africa and asia, as well as the 'Bison of north america, if I am not mistaken. True it is just a gamble on my part, but it just looks the part.... 8)
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - tDub248 - 09-29-2009
Off the top of my head, there's some sculptures (1 or 2) from the east (palmra or hatre), that show a guy with pteruges (sp?) that appear to be quilted... at least to me. they have that criss-cross kind of texture carved in. I thought that was cool. I plan to do that for a Judean Auxiliary kit/costume for a Nativity production I'm working on at my work. (I love my job)
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Theodosius the Great - 09-29-2009
I posted my thoughts on this very question here on this thread and tried to back up my reasoning based on the
surviving artistic evidence : <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27160">viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27160<!-- l
But the question presupposes there was only one material used so it may not have been either /or. I think pteruges could
have been composed of both materials. Officers may have used fabric far more often than regular soldiers which is suggestive
in the artwork, IMO.
Quote:they have that criss-cross kind of texture carved in. I thought that was cool. I plan to do that for a Judean Auxiliary kit/costume for a Nativity production I'm working on at my work. (I love my job)I'd like to see the results :!:
~Theo
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Tita Iuventia Martia - 09-30-2009
Quote:Of course...never heard of buffalo mozzarella....
No, no, I have never heard for this cheese ;-) )
I imagine they did, as buffallo are found in the middle east and northern africa and asia, as well as the 'Bison of north america, if I am not mistaken. True it is just a gamble on my part, but it just looks the part.... 8)
Ohh, It is possible, you are right... I have to learn more about animals, which became known for the Romans
:-) -) ) regards
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Tita Iuventia Martia - 09-30-2009
Quote:I posted my thoughts on this very question here on this thread and tried to back up my reasoning based on the
surviving artistic evidence : <!-- l <a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27160">viewtopic.php?f=55&t=27160<!-- l
Thank you, I will read this thread :-) )
But the question presupposes there was only one material used so itmay not have been either /or. I think pteruges could
have been composed of both materials. Officers may have used fabric far more often than regular soldiers which is suggestive
in the artwork, IMO.
Yes, you are right that a fabric may has been used by officers farmore of then ordinary soldiers.
We can see it in the artwork, no doubt about it (see a fringe on thebottom of the pteruges). It have to be a fabric. But the main trouble is that we have no evidence about using the subarmalis by regular soldiers (If I am not mistaken), so I imagine that they may used a fabric as weel as leather. The other argument is a price: what has been cheaper, leather or fabric.. I imagine that a fabric. But it is only my personal feeling. I am also quite sure that a fabric is more comfortable to wearing than a leather (I tried both and a fabric is better).
So, I personaly think that the officers wore probably more commonly the fabric ones (because of our evidences, reliephs, sculptures etc.) and the regular soldiers? Probably either.
tDub248:1g43p3dx Wrote:they have that criss-cross kind of texture carved in. I thought that was cool. I plan to do that for a Judean Auxiliary kit/costume for a Nativity production I'm working on at my work. (I love my job)I'd like to see the results :!:
~Theo
So, Am I :-) -) )
regards
Re: Leather or linen pteryges? - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 09-30-2009
The ones worn by the emperors were definitely made out of soft fabric as can be seen on these statues of Trajan and the headless emperor - the folds depicted in stone (!) indicate the softness of the material.
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Matt Lukes - 10-02-2009
Well how about that- that last photo especially is quite telling. The pteryges couldn't be the least bit stiff to allow just a very short lateral section of edge to curl like that and I really couldn't see a sculptor adding a detail like that if it weren't true to life; a bit of fold might be understandable but a curl? Seems extremely doubtful. Now of course this brings up the point that surely there was a variety of types as well- doubtless the Emperor's outfit shown wasn't the same as, for example, a regular Centurio's...
And just to address the primary support you gave for using Linen Radka, I would point out that there is no concrete evidence for the Greeks using linen as armour and even the possible evidence (a comment here and there in various texts) is still hotly debated. So that is no good foundation to be sure. The circumstantial arguments of depicted color, etc. are reasonable however, but then I'd expect someone could propose ways leather could be considered just as valid for the same reasons...
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Luca - 06-01-2010
I think they were mostly made of textile.
I explain my position here:
http://www.romanhideout.com/legiov/fabr ... es1_en.asp
here is an interesting touareg pteryges version (modern):
http://www.romanhideout.com/images/ly/tripoli/61.asp
Re: LLeather or linen pteriges? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-01-2010
While I am inclined to agree, there is a possibility the curl is a curl in the leather.