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+--- Thread: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? (/showthread.php?tid=15820)
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Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Virilis - 09-27-2009
Salvete!
Does anyone have any additional info / photos of this helmet?:
http://www.romancoins.info/D4617487x.jpg
The only inscription in Christie`s site is this:
Lot Description
A LATE ROMAN IRON HELMET
CIRCA 4TH-EARLY 5TH CENTURY A.D.
Formed of several sections hinged and riveted in place, the domed cap with a brow band off set by horizontal ribs, the two halves of the cap joined to a central ridge by rivets, the nose-guard and ornamental arching brows riveted to the brow band, the cheek-pieces flanged toward the neck and hinged to the brow band, each perforated below the chin, the neck-guard with an everted hemispherical flange hinged to the back of the brow band
11½ in. (29.2 cm.) long
Provenance
German Private Collection, acquired in the early 1970s.
It is strange that there is so little evidence about this interesting piece. I would perhaps have a replica made out of it...
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - gneuspartak - 09-27-2009
Its Gutman collection helm?
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Virilis - 09-27-2009
Quote:Its Gutman collection helm?
No it isn`t Denis, at least to my knowledge. Nevertheless a very interesting one :wink: ...
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Peroni - 09-27-2009
This helmet belongs to someone I am in contact with. What specifically do you need to know Jyrki?
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Virilis - 09-28-2009
Quote:This helmet belongs to someone I am in contact with. What specifically do you need to know Jyrki?
Hi Adrian!
Is it possible to get some additional photos of it from different angles?
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Iagoba - 10-02-2009
I´ve seen it before, but I cannot recall when or where. :?
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-02-2009
It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Nathan Ross - 10-02-2009
Quote:It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:
Here's the thread in question: link from old RAT
No conclusions reached, not surprisingly!
I notice the helmet has now been 'dated' 4th-5th century though. Any good reason behind that, does anyone know? The general consensus here seemed to favour late 3rd/early 4th...
- Nathan
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Peroni - 10-02-2009
No need to contact the owner....
It's in the database Jyrki..
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,96/
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Virilis - 10-02-2009
Thanks guys
! Howcome I never noticed that it is in the database, silly me...
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Agraes - 10-05-2009
Quote:Gaius Julius Caesar:33cgykdj Wrote:It was discussed some time ago on a thread, some thought it to be a fake, IIRC.
What the actual outcome of the brawl, I mean discussion was, escapes me, I'm afraid! :o lol:
Here's the thread in question: link from old RAT
No conclusions reached, not surprisingly!
I notice the helmet has now been 'dated' 4th-5th century though. Any good reason behind that, does anyone know? The general consensus here seemed to favour late 3rd/early 4th...
- Nathan
It has hinges to attach the cheek-guards.
According to Damien Glad (archeologist specialised in late roman and byzantine warfare, and also member of the Herculiani), who recently published a book on eastern roman defensive equipment, known helmets with hinges - from Der El Medineh and Leyde - dates back to the late 5th/early 6th century. Not to the late 3rd/early 4th century as thought before.
That would be why this helmet datation have been postponed aswell. However I don't recall what Damien said about that helmet, I will maybe ask him.
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Virilis - 10-06-2009
Very interesting, Benjamin!
Anyway this Deir-El-Medineh helmet puzzles me. In fact it is one of the most easily identified helmet from roman sculptural evidence in my opinion and by this I mean the arch of Galerius and it is dated somewhere around 300 AD...
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Nathan Ross - 10-06-2009
Quote:this Deir-El-Medineh helmet... is one of the most easily identified helmet from roman sculptural evidence in my opinion and by this I mean the arch of Galerius and it is dated somewhere around 300 AD...
I thought the same. If the dating of the 'Christies' helmet relies on the dating of the Deir-el-Medineh, and the latter is now being post-dated to the 5th/6th century, that leaves a rather substantial gap in the archeological record of Roman helmet evolution! That in itself, of course, is no reason to accept the old dating - making the finds 'fit' our idea of chronology (especially single items) cannot be a good idea - but it might be good to know exactly what evidence is being used for this proposed new date.
Simon James, in 1986 (and he may not have been the first person to do so!) suggested the development of the Roman 'spangenhelm' in the Danube region in the late 3rd century - using the Deir-el-Medineh helmet and the Arch of Galerius as models. He then assumed the slightly later introduction of the 'ridge' helmet based on earlier Persian examples. (Here's the article: [url
m4allkb]http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/syria_0039-7946_1986_num_63_1_6923[/url])It would be a shame if these two helmets are somehow 'proved' to be centuries later - they fitted so neatly into a late 3rd/early 4th timeframe!
- Nathan
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-06-2009
There is a helmet on the Adamklissi monument tha thas been said to be a spangen helm.
Looks a lot like the Deir-el-Medineh too! To me anyway. A little.....
Re: Christie`s late roman helmet - any info? - Virilis - 10-06-2009
Quote:There is a helmet on the Adamklissi monument tha thas been said to be a spangen helm.
Looks a lot like the Deir-el-Medineh too! To me anyway. A little.....
Yes, I have wondered about this monument too, Byron. Anyway it seems to be that the spangenhelm-like helmet is probably a gallic type helmet with a stylished cross-reinforcement (like those against dacian falx used in the dacian campaign)?