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+--- Thread: Greek helmets galore (/showthread.php?tid=15793)
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 11-17-2009
Something for Paul ...
Re: Greek helmets galore - Paullus Scipio - 11-17-2009
Nice helmet !....do you have any details of its provenace? It looks to be a Macedonian or Hellenistic Pilos type.......given the different shades/colour of the wings/horns, it may be that this decoration was added later and may not be 'original'. Perhaps the helmet fell into 'barbarian' hands ( Celtic perhaps? )....this is of course pure speculation without some sort of information on where it was found !
Are you making a point here?? :lol: :lol:
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 11-18-2009
I'm sorry, but it's a south-italian pilos in the Louvre, and got there already in the 19th century. Horns cut out of thin bronze sheets are a rather common feature of south-italian piloi. Remarkable is the preserved gold-wreath.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Dan Howard - 11-19-2009
Here is one allegedly found in Geneva and dating to 7th C BC
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 11-19-2009
No, this helmet is reportedly from Taranto and now in swiss private property.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Dan Howard - 11-20-2009
Ahh. Many thanks. Is the date correct?
Re: Greek helmets galore - Paullus Scipio - 11-20-2009
It would seem so....the helmet is apparently displayed in the "Musee d'Art et d'Histoire" ( Genevre), and is labeled c. 650 BC '...
Here is another view.....
Re: Greek helmets galore - Paullus Scipio - 11-20-2009
The Oracle/Jorg wrote:
Quote:I'm sorry, but it's a south-italian pilos in the Louvre, and got there already in the 19th century. Horns cut out of thin bronze sheets are a rather common feature of south-italian piloi. Remarkable is the preserved gold-wreath
I had briefly considered Italian ( south or central, where, as you say, winged and horned helmets are common) but was under the impression we were here concerned with Greek helmets, so dismissed the thought......
'flat' horns of this type even appear as decoration on Greek-style helmets as far west as Spain, but again it is uncertain if such decoration was added after falling into 'native' hands, or was original......
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 11-20-2009
No, wings and horns are definite original part of the decoration. Many helmets depicted in attic vase-paintings have comparable features, but all helmets with preserved horns or wings com from South Italy. These helmets were definitely produced in greek workshops (in Tarent, Metapont etc.), but I have serious doubts if they were actually worn by greeks. See my earliest posts in this thread.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Paullus Scipio - 11-21-2009
Jorg wrote:
Quote:No, wings and horns are definite original part of the decoration. Many helmets depicted in attic vase-paintings have comparable features, but all helmets with preserved horns or wings com from South Italy.
I don't think one can be quite so categorical. There are examples of 'northern' montefortinos with horns/wings, seemingly of celtic manufacture, and 'piloi' which have clearly 'Greek-style' ornament, but also an obvious celtic motif of flat horns/wings-and-wheels added......
The there's this rather late Spanish example....
Re: Greek helmets galore - PMBardunias - 11-21-2009
Quote:Something for Paul ...
Thanks, that is a beauty. Here's one you've seen I'm sure with a wreath. This has always made me believe that Tarantines enjoyed the "ring toss" game played by the Coneheads on the old Saturday Night Live.
Dan, the attachments for the horns on that helmet are interesting because they differ completely from the type used to secure the horns on some of the Pilos we've posted. In the pilos there is metal flange a riveted to the helmet that the horn fits over like a sheath and is then pinned.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Paullus Scipio - 11-21-2009
Paul B. wrote:
Quote:In the pilos there is metal flange a riveted to the helmet that the horn fits over like a sheath and is then pinned.
...intersting - an example of detachable horns. One other interesting feature on many of these 'piloi' is the 'bust' decoration visible on your left-hand example...I wonder if a close inspection might reveal they all came from one production centre/mass produced, or whether this decorative feature was simply widely copied ???
Re: Greek helmets galore - The Oracle - 11-21-2009
The intensifying of the ferocity of the warrior by adding decorative features like horns or wings was common to all ancient cultures and not just employed by the celts. Everyone could do that and so did the Greeks.
The wheel seen on many piloi isn't a celtic ornament, see my earliest posts. Paul has asked the same question.
Paul mentioned correctly the technical attachment of the horns, a technique all horned piloi I know share.
A close inspection of the Gorgoneia on many piloi was planned part of the canceled Guttmann-publication and should provide a better understanding of the number of helmet-workshops in South Italy.
Re: Greek helmets galore - PMBardunias - 11-21-2009
Quote:A close inspection of the Gorgoneia on many piloi was planned part of the canceled Guttmann-publication and should provide a better understanding of the number of helmet-workshops in South Italy.
I wonder if they were tied to certain workshops, almost a branding.
Re: Greek helmets galore - Gaius Julius Caesar - 11-21-2009
Or perhaps a sign of a batch order for a certain person funding the raising of body of men to arms?