+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Caesar Throwing a Standard (/showthread.php?tid=15771)
Pages:
1
2
Caesar Throwing a Standard - Johnny Shumate - 09-17-2009
Can anyone give me some information on this particular episode where Caesar threw a standard into the enemy ranks..?
Thanks,
Johnny
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Jona Lendering - 09-17-2009
Quote:Can anyone give me some information on this particular episode where Caesar threw a standard into the enemy ranks..?Is it possible that you are confusing the story of the aquilifer of the tenth (Gallic War 4.25) with Camillus' order to throw a standard into the lines of the Antiates? (Livy, 6.8 )
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Epictetus - 09-18-2009
I can't think of any time he threw a standard, but I remember at least two instances where he personally stopped the flight of a standard-bearer. One is in Civil War 3.69 and the other was in Plutarch, Caesar 52 where he famously tells the fleeing soldier which way the enemy was located.
Then I think there was another case in Gallic War 2.25 where when one standard was lost he ordered the other standards forward and himself went into the front line.
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - jvrjenivs - 09-18-2009
I know a reference to a text where a commander or officer trew the standard into enemy lines, to incite the soldiers to move forward to recover it. (it's in D'amato & SumnerArms and Armour of the imperial Roman soldierpage 46, note 273)
Don't have the source text at hand, but here is note 273: Caesar BG, V, 37; Ceasar BC, III, 64.
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Jona Lendering - 09-18-2009
Quote:Caesar BG, V, 37; Ceasar BC, III, 64.BG 5.37 is about a standard bearer who throws a standard, indeed. But not into enemy lines, but into his own camp.
BC 3.64 is about a collapsing standard bearer who instruct his comrades to save the object.
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Johnny Shumate - 09-18-2009
OK, I'll take a look at these sources.....Thanks to everyone.
Wasn't there an episode at the battle of Pydna where a commander did the same thing..?
Johnny
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - PhilusEstilius - 09-18-2009
I do believe there was mention some where that when Caesar's ships arrived on the shores of Britain some troops would not go ashore so the Standard bearer lept into the water and they all had to move to protect that Standard.
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Paullus Scipio - 09-19-2009
Sure was, Johnny - recorded in Plutarch "Life of Aemilius Paullus (XX):-
"The Romans, when they attacked the Macedonian phalanx, were unable to force a passage, and Salvius, the commander of the Pelignians, snatched the standard of his company and hurled it in among the enemy. 2 Then the Pelignians, (Peligni and Marrucini were socii/allies ) since among the Italians it is an unnatural and flagrant thing to abandon a standard, rushed on towards the place where it was, and dreadful losses were inflicted and suffered on both sides. 3 For the Romans tried to thrust aside the long spears of their enemies with their swords, or to crowd them back with their shields, or to seize and put them by with their very hands; 4 while the Macedonians, holding them firmly advanced with both hands, and piercing those who fell upon them, armour and all, since neither shield nor breastplate could resist the force of the Macedonian long spear, hurled headlong back the Pelignians and Marrucinians, who, with no consideration but with animal fury rushed upon the strokes that p409met them, and a certain death. 5 When the first line had thus been cut to pieces, those arrayed behind them were beaten back; and though there was no flight, still they retired towards the mountain called Olocrus, 6 so that even Aemilius, as Poseidonius tells us, when he saw it, rent his garments. For this part of his army was retreating, and the rest of the Romans were turning aside from the phalanx, which gave them no access to it, but confronted them as it were with a dense barricade of long spears, and was everywhere unassailable.
7 But the ground was uneven, and the line of battle so long that shields could not be kept continuously locked together, and Aemilius therefore saw that the Macedonian phalanx was getting many clefts and intervals in it, as is natural when armies are large and the efforts of the combatants are diversified; portions of it were hard pressed, and other portions were dashing forward. 8 Thereupon he came up swiftly, and dividing up his cohorts, ordered them to plunge quickly into the interstices and empty spaces in the enemy's line and thus come to close quarters, not fighting a single battle against them all, but many separate and successive battles. 9 These instructions being given by Aemilius to his officers, and by his officers to the soldiers, as soon as they got between the ranks of the enemy and separated them, they attacked some of them in the flank where their armour did not shield them, 10 and cut off others by falling upon their rear, and the strength and general efficiency of the phalanx was lost when it was thus broken up; and now that the Macedonians engaged man to man or in small detachments, they could only hack with their small daggers against the firm and long shields of the Romans, and oppose pelta/targets to their swords, which, such was their weight and momentum, penetrated through all their armour to their bodies. They therefore made a poor resistance and at last were routed. "
(translation courtesy Bill Thayer's Lacus Curtius site)
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Johnny Shumate - 09-19-2009
Paul,
That's it, thanks for locating....!
Would the Pelignians be armed much like the Romans..?
Johnny
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Paullus Scipio - 09-19-2009
So far as is known, pretty much identical.........
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - A_Volpe - 09-20-2009
sorry I keep reading the topic headline "Caesar Throwing a Standard" and thinking it's another way of saying something like "Caesar throwing a temper-tantrum"
:twisted:
Caesar throwing a standard temper tantrum... "Mommy Pompey is poking me! Make him stooooop!" As opposed to the full-power, screaming, stomping, throwing things, banging fists on ground "Waaah! I want my Eagle back, Vercingetorix! You Meany" sort of Tantrum.
:lol:
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - M. Demetrius - 09-20-2009
Quote:sorry I keep reading the topic headline "Caesar Throwing a Standard" and thinking it's another way of saying something like "Caesar throwing a temper-tantrum"Yep. Me, too. :wink:
You know, though, the incident of throwing a standard into the lines of the enemy must have meant that they were pretty close together. A standard is much heavier than a spear or javelin, and not nearly as aerodynamically balanced. Imagine the faces of the guys who were near the spot where it came to earth! I wonder what they were thinking.
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Praefectusclassis - 09-21-2009
Quote:I wonder what they were thinking.Probably something along the lines of "Pfew, I nearly had a very interesting decoration sticking out of my cranium!" :wink:
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - A_Volpe - 09-21-2009
geeze, why would you risk damaging our precious standard with all of our pimpin shiny bits?!
but yeah, interesting idea to chuck the standard into the mix and yell out "Protect the standard! Go Get Em Boys!"
:twisted:
Re: Caesar Throwing a Standard - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-26-2009
Wonder if thats how Varus lost his three Eagles?
The boys just said 'Stuff it! Go get them yourself, you fat B$$sT*D!!'