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+--- Thread: Interested in Roman Riding? (/showthread.php?tid=15626)
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - John Conyard - 08-09-2010
Certainly the York study seemed to suggest a 14 hand average on your side of the channel. But Huns and Alans introduced bigger horses, or at least the ugly looking big pony type 2, seemingly like the Asiatic wild horse. They can be bigger than 14 hands.
I appreciate that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I'm sure they are lovely really.
Pleased to "meet" you Fabricius. I fear my French all comes from wine bottles. :oops:
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - Robert Vermaat - 08-09-2010
Quote:http://picasaweb.google.com/fabriciusdesparnacum/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCPDx1Z-JtsKtsQE&feat=directlinkGreat pictures. Do you guys travel abroad for shows? :wink:
Oh, and you can bring your captives too if you want.
![[Image: Dsc04062.jpg]](http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rPlt57oCfZM/TF8HjpK02MI/AAAAAAAABnk/9MlFggBnZZ4/s640/Dsc04062.jpg)
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - Vindex - 08-10-2010
Oooh! Very interesting pictures!
And lots of questions too - but more to do with the horses' kit than yours!
May I PM you with them plese?
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - jvrjenivs - 08-10-2010
Quote:Oooh! Very interesting pictures!
And lots of questions too - but more to do with the horses' kit than yours!
May I PM you with them plese?
Post them on here. So we can all learn from it
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - Vindex - 08-10-2010
Quote:Or on the cavalry thread, which has a large following.
Bit nervous about posting questions...I've already had one discussion about sizes of horses :? D
For example I disagree with Ann Hyland's comments about Hunnish horses
hock: ! But then again, I'm prejudiced against Arab horses who may have admirable stamina, but they can be too intelligent and very tricky to handle....and I'm coming at this as a an equestrian who is a historian as opposed to a historian with an interest in cavalry (that's why horses first)...
(Have I manged to wriggle out of it yet?? :lol: )
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - jvrjenivs - 08-10-2010
Quote:Bit nervous about posting questions...I've already had one discussion about sizes of horses :? DFirst, I would say you don't have to be nervous about posting on here. As long as you keep your voice nice, I'm in the impression there is much room on RAT to discuss different views. I surely wouldn't like if the fear of bringing an controversial view would hestitate you to post it. And about Ann Hyland, I can only second that there are (in my view) indeed some 'mistakes', but she also has good stuff, of course, as I think is with every writing. Always make up your own mind! (but try also to see otherones view of course).
For example I disagree with Ann Hyland's comments about Hunnish horses
...and I'm coming at this as a an equestrian who is a historian as opposed to a historian with an interest in cavalry (that's why horses first)...
And about your point of historians. Make sure that there also are enough people on RAT of whom history isn't their (primairy) field, at all.
Re: Foederati\'s cavalry training. - John Conyard - 08-10-2010
Equestrians are good, reconstructors are good, archaeologists are even good, but who needs historians?
Just kidding
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Robert Vermaat - 08-10-2010
I've merged the topic of the Foederati cavalry with this thread.
Re: Foederati\'s cavalry training. - Vindex - 08-10-2010
Quote:Equestrians are good, reconstructors are good, archaeologists are even good, but who needs historians?
Just kidding
Uh oh...I'm a horse riding ancient historian then turned to archaeology...am I forgiven?
Thank you for merging the thread...I will go and order my thoughts then unleash my myriad questions!
Re: Foederati\'s cavalery training. - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-10-2010
Quote:Vindex:18eekmnh Wrote:Oooh! Very interesting pictures!
And lots of questions too - but more to do with the horses' kit than yours!
May I PM you with them plese?
Post them on here. So we can all learn from it
Gee, why should be break from tradition on here..... :twisted:
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 08-11-2010
First question - breeching straps.
These are depicted as being quite high up the horse's haunches on epigraphic evidence(examples) and reconstruction:
EDIT: Perhpas this link will work - http://s397.photobucket.com/albums/pp51 ... pigraphic/
The images from the Foederati cavalry link show them quite tight (and perhaps slipped once or twice?) and John has said his riders have them quite loose:
http://s397.photobucket.com/albums/pp51 ... Breeching/
And from Cesar's description above of his lovely mare doing a rodeo act (or bronc-ing) I imagine her breeching strap must have caught her under the tail and pinched her rather painfully, so one can't really blame the poor mare. If you look at the later of his photos you can see it is much higher up her haunches and reflects more closely what the epigraphic evidence portrays.
Which leads to the question: what do you think the breeching strap is for?
This is where I am coming from...more than happy to be put right, even happier for source references...
To me, the term breeching strap comes from driving parlance and is part of the traces to enable a horse to slow down a towed vehicle. I think these straps are better termed as balance straps and are part of the horse's equipment to hold the saddle in place when used in conjunction with a breast plate/girth/strap (I particularly like the attachments which go on to the saddle in two places...looking for a photo to illustrate...will perhaps come back to that one).
So I rather like the picture from the Foederati collection as there is enough tension there to hold the saddle in place (although there is no breast strap in the example above)
It leaves the issue of the epigraphic evidence of course, but I believe that if you look at the strap attaching the strap to the saddle in all of the examples and then follow the line down instead of up, it would secure the saddle round the horse's haunches and not under the tail. It would also be tight enough (perhaps, can't prove anything!) to hold the saddle in place. If it really was positioned as the evidence suggest, I think a lot of cavalrymen would have been bucked off in pretty short order!
And the point of the balance straps securing the saddle more than just the girth is to allow for lateral movement of the rider and also to prevent the saddle slipping going up and downhills.
I wait with bated breath... slopes off to hide behind sofa and find suitable head protection (I think I am a First Century AD person, but not quite sure yet so don't have the correct helmet to hand! :lol: )
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 08-11-2010
Ok...pee'd off now...what's happened to all my PICTURES!! AARRGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Took me ages to do this...
PS...sorry for all the editing but I spilled claret on my keyboard last night and some keys are clearly still tipsy and don't want to work LOL!
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - caiusbeerquitius - 08-11-2010
Better use the RAT upload function.
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - John Conyard - 08-11-2010
I agree with you Vindex. The breast and breaching straps help hold the saddle in place when jumping and when going over rough terrain.
[attachment=0:283rc3m0]<!-- ia0 jumping.JPG<!-- ia0 [/attachment:283rc3m0]
And they allow you to hang decoration from them.
Iconographic evidence shows them tight, which might just allow them to look smart. I certainly don't like the look of such tight straps.
In terms of modern reconstructed saddles I do remember some very poor saddles which needed them to help hold the saddle in place. They were cast resin saddles.
I fit our saddles very carefully and there is little movement. I suspect we don't really need our straps and one horse hates his breaching strap. I prefer using a surcingle to hold the saddles tight. And much comes down to the girth. I believe the girth was attached to a wooden frame rather than being stitched into the saddle cover as initially thought. Which means many of our saddles use split girths attached directly to the saddle frame giving greater stability.
Two of us did go on a great cross country ride through trees, jumping across stream, climbing vertical slopes etc. and I think the straps may have helped us out there. May have, not too sure really.
Anyway, good question.
Next!
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 08-11-2010
I'll do the next in a moment if I may!
On your picture above, is that a breaching strap on Hal? (Lovely pony by the way!) And do you use cinch girths or buckles? And do you think, therefore, that the breeching straps and breast plates served the purpose of securing the saddle and then had decoration added? (I am assuming this is the case).
Next question is a more directed one for the pictures from Fabricius - the rope halter and heavy noseband(will try and post a picture, but I'm being a biff clearly...)
[attachment=1:1ev33du7]<!-- ia1 noseband rein 3.jpg<!-- ia1 [/attachment:1ev33du7]
I would be interested in the research on this one and the single sided rein attachment/use. It suggests to me that the horse is quite strong and it is there for additional brakes, but then the snaffle the horse is wearing looks fairly mild.
And finally...
The neck straps - are these purely for decoration as well as giving additional stability when required (what I would call the 'Oh My God!' strap, frequently resorted to out hunting) or are they used to influence the horse's neck in any way? I ask this as I have found no evidence yet of anything resembling a standing martingale (as worn by one of the Comitatus' team's horses - the ex-polo pony) and was deliberating what could have been used to counter act the action of some of the more severe bits which have been found:
[attachment=0:1ev33du7]<!-- ia0 milit-horse-1.jpg<!-- ia0 [/attachment:1ev33du7]