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+--- Thread: Interested in Roman Riding? (/showthread.php?tid=15626)
Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 04-24-2015
That's fair enough but a bit too far from the Roman saddles we see in the evidence for my personal taste.
As long as the side boards contour to the horse then you should be fine, although I would argue a Cossak saddle has a different profile to your photograph.
[attachment=12271]lenchik.jpg[/attachment]
Interested in Roman Riding? - Evgeny - 05-17-2015
I used a profile of the board of the Cossack saddle as far as possible to build the Roman seat. This does not mean that I copied kozache saddle and has attached to it projections. For me, the main thing was to make the seat so that I could go and srazhatsya long time without danger to horses. And these criteria correspond to the board of the Cossack saddle completely.
Interested in Roman Riding? - tigger - 05-17-2015
Do you know about the work done by Duncan Noble on Roman saddles ? He used to be my tutor and I translated a Dutch report on the saddle found in Holland. He used to do reconstructions for the BBC.
Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 05-18-2015
I have to say that I haven't seen any work by Duncan Noble. Is there something published?
Interested in Roman Riding? - tigger - 05-18-2015
I'll try to find it, might take about a week. The saddle I remember was the squarish one with four 'prongs'. I think the remains of sheepskin were found with it,
I'll get back to you on that.
Interested in Roman Riding? - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 05-18-2015
Yes, please, put some more references. Seems very interesting.
Interested in Roman Riding? - Bryan - 05-18-2015
For those that have used them, can you describe the efforts for mounting a horse with the four horned saddle. Can an individual do it alone or is an attendant needed? Could a warrior with heavy armor and shield and spear/javelins in hand do it alone?
Interested in Roman Riding? - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 05-18-2015
With a roman sized horse and training every day as roman does, yes, its possible. I modern times, better to look for a frind who helps you...
mile:
Interested in Roman Riding? - Bryan - 05-19-2015
So you think it possible to vault atop a horse and 4 horned saddle with slung shield and sword and spear? Not challenging your opinion, but those rear horns look like a hard obstacle to get over if the body was encumbered by arms and armor.
Interested in Roman Riding? - Michael Kerr - 05-19-2015
Peter Connolly wrote in his book Cavalryman that the ancients talked about training to vault onto their horses and the Romans built vaulting horses, he even provided an illustration. I think he also used to demonstrate the practice but a fully armed heavy cavalryman would be pushing it to vault onto a roman saddle IMHO. Would it not make more sense to train the horse to kneel so that the rider can mount the horse. The Scythians trained their horses to kneel and this skill would have passed on through the Sarmatians, Alans and all the horsemen of the Steppes. The Celts also had a long history of horsemanship so I was wondering why wouldn't this skill pass through eventually to the Roman cavalry.
mile: [attachment=12382]Throwingahorse.jpg[/attachment]
Regards
Michael Kerr
Interested in Roman Riding? - Sextus Saturninus - 05-19-2015
It would make more sense in my opinion Michael - especially since Roman cavalry was most times auxiliaries from provinces where there was a history of horse riding.
Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 05-19-2015
Is it not Vegetius who says all soldiers were taught to vault onto a horse?
My preferred method is stick a lance in the ground, lean the shield against it and then pick the up once on a horse. A servant could certainly hand them to you (having acted as the mounting block first, perhaps?). As a one off, vaulting on would be fine I suppose but your horse has to stand still so not sure if it is likely in the heat of battle; just an opinion.
If you put a search on You Tube for methods of getting on a horse you will be amazed by the many methods - one includes using the lowered horse's neck to propel the rider rearwards; ingenious but perhaps a litle awkward when there are horns on the saddle.
A mounting block of some sort gets my vote as well as teaching the horse to kneel. My horses were trained to stand by almost anything so I could get on without damaging their back in the process (five bar gates, oil drums, standing them in a depression in the ground - anything to give me an advantage of height)
Interested in Roman Riding? - Bryan - 05-19-2015
About how long does it take to teach a horse to kneel in order to mount? Are all horses used as war horses capable of learning this?
Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 05-20-2015
I would say a month of daily instruction would form the habit for the horse with due consideation to environment and the horse's temperament. All horses are certainly capable of learning and can do it physically. You could even get them to lie down and step over them to mount but it doesn't do much for the saddle and there is quite a lurch when they get up. It is useful to teach a horse to do this when asked too as it is a very good way of lowering your profile if you are trying to be covert. Examples from Vietnam War in living memory and I have heard tales of mixed country Special Forces using this in Afghanistan (US, Aus and NZ rumour has it).
Interested in Roman Riding? - Michael Kerr - 05-20-2015
Although not Roman, I have this old image of US cavalry troopers who had thrown down their horses on exercises in 1900 to give them a low profile I suppose.
[attachment=12388]throwingdown.jpg[/attachment]
Renate Rolle in her book "The World of the Scythians" writes,
Quote:Training horses to kneel down was a custom peculiar to the nomadic peoples and not practised among the Greeks. If it had been then Xenophon would not have left us such exquisite instructions on the mounting of a horse - by clutching the mane or using the lance in a kind of pole-vault in order to catapult oneself into the saddle.
The pictures below are from an amphora found in the Certomlyk kurgan and they give a good idea of how the Scythians trained their horses. The ropes which seem to be missing were in fact small silver chains of which only small traces remain. Rolle adds that this type of training was very important on the battlefield as kneeling on command could mean the difference between life and death for a fallen and heavily-armed warrior who would be relatively immobile on foot and who could get back swiftly on a kneeling horse in an age before stirrups. She seems to think that most of the horses being trained in the scene were captured as the last horse on the bottom right seemed to have an inferior shape to its head and body and was probably a Tarpan type horse.
But it wasn't all beer and skittles for the Scythian horse trainer, as the image below the training scene is a carving from an ivory plaque showing a fallen Scythian getting dragged along by a runaway horse. :grin:
[attachment=12389]amphorafriezesmall2.jpg[/attachment]
The image below is from a royal Scythian neck ring in which the riders seem to be mounting horses which are kneeling
[attachment=12390]kneelinghorses.jpg[/attachment]
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr