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+--- Thread: Interested in Roman Riding? (/showthread.php?tid=15626)
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Evgeny - 03-07-2011
Sorry for the question. Where can I buy Roman saddles and their price?
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - jvrjenivs - 03-07-2011
Quote:Sorry for the question. Where can I buy Roman saddles and their price?
Comitatus can supply you with a good saddle at a very reasonable price. Just visit their website and get in touch with John
http://www.comitatus.net/fabrica.html
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - John Conyard - 03-10-2011
I have not being on RAT for a while so these photos are new to me. You are looking good Jurjen, and I am pleased you have got yourself a fine helmet. You cannot have too many of those.
I like the way the sun is reflecting on the blade of the spatha, but be careful with it. That blade will break if you try using it.
Have you thought of a good Roman name for Banana?
I made a new bridle for Cookie, and have gone several steps backwards .....
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Robert - 03-11-2011
Hi John,
I have not had a look at Jurjen's sword close up, but what makes you assume that particular blade will break? With you being experienced at hitting things with swords from horseback, what should I be looking for when making Jurjen a battle ready sword. As I understand things, swords commonly sold for re-enactment purposes tend to fail at two points, a welded on rat-tail tang threaded and screwed in with a round nut and also at the place the sword goes into the hilt, if the shoulder of the blade is too thin to take the stress at that pivot point at impact. For a blade itself to actually break, it would need to be either flawed, brittle from being overhardened and not properly tempered or both. Would really value some expert opinion on this.
And Jurjen, that is on heck of a turnout!! Laudes for that magnificent effort
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - John Conyard - 03-11-2011
Indian blades, and indeed many re-enactment blades, are not made to be used. For example Cesar's Hod Hill spatha made by DSC broke when he first used it from horse back.It is really a very pretty sword that really looks the part but you shouldn't use it.
And the Depeeka spatha Jurjen is carrying, and the various copies of it, break very easily. They are often carried by the hired riders used by the ESG and English Heritage. I have seen them break where the tang meets the blade, in the tang itself, and best of all, the blade can shatter.
What Jurjen is trying to do needs immense effort and dedication. And he has all of those and is well down the road on his project. I think it's great, a real bit of reconstruction. Kit that is meant to be used, not just modelled. My sort of thing
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Peroni - 03-11-2011
Very true. My Deepeeka spatha broke mid-blade at Corbridge one year - sounded like a bell ringing! They over-temper the blades making them very brittle.
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Virilis - 03-11-2011
This has bothered me always with, for example, the Deepeeka blades. Is it really too expensive to make blades with untempered sof steel with a solid, strong tang? Now the blades are too brittle ( do they contain chromium etc.?) with often welded on weak rat-tail tangs. Even if they are not meant to be battle-ready they should be stronger, just for the safety`s sake...
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - John Conyard - 03-11-2011
I owned one once, dropped it, and the blade broke near the handle. :lol: Waving one around on horseback will put it under great strain. Hitting anything with it .......
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Robert - 03-12-2011
I shall attempt not bore you with "iron-lore", but you can't "overtemper" a blade to make it brittle, because tempering is meant to reduce brittleness and normalise the iron to the desired strenght after the quench, which brings steel to its full hardness. So if you feel a blade is too hard (test it with a drill-bit for iron at not too great a speed and see if it bites), heating it redhot to the point when the iron is no longer magnetic (test with a magnet on a steel rod to prevent singing your fingers) and then allowing to cool slowly will make it a lot less brittle. What you are actually doing is annealing the blade. You do not need a blastfurnace for that, any long coal fire will do the trick. Why long? Well, that allows you to heat the whole blade at once to about the same temp. Having done that, the blade may bend, but will no longer break on impact, save for the spots I mentioned, but that is just bad construction.
Actually, mild steel is fine for making Roman blades to hit things with. This is less expensive then the EN45 steel manufactures in India are using now !! Heat treatment may be done to relieve stress after forging, but will not improve the hardness, as you need more carbon in the steel for that. A modest tool grade steel is beter for keeping a keen edge, but is not a steel prone to shatter.
I believe the Hod Hill spatha Adrian sells is by Al Hammd, DSC does not do blades as far as I am aware (no weapons licence), for if they did, I would be happy to help them correct at least these elementary mistakes (welding on tangs, thin shoulders). As for Deepeeka, I fear they couldn't care less, as long as it still sells
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Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Virilis - 03-12-2011
Thanks Robert, very informative!
If mild steel is authentic for a roman blade and in addition no problem cost - / manufacturing- wise why on earth we can't find one?! In fact it is silly how simple for example roman gladiuses are in construction. :???:
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Robert - 03-12-2011
Mild steel does make a good blade, but there is a wide variation in Roman steel blades. Some are composite blades forge-welded. These guys really knew how to make a sword. But on average, yes, I would say a properly crafted blade made from mild steel (20 carbon) or any steel with a carbon content below 50 should do the trick. The EN45 steel commonly used is easily available, is a spring steel with a corbon content well over 50 which is good for a blade (depending on your standards) and does make a fine blade if properly tempered. Failing that, it becomes too brittle. I believe that to be happening with Indian blades. A blade can be tested by applying increasing pressure halfway up the blade. It should bend moderatly easy and then spring back.
For those who lack the coal fire, a blowtorch may also be used to reduce brittleness, but keep the flame in constant motion to heat the blade as evenly as possible. Mind you, this is a rather hash measure, you need a lot of experience to judge the colour of the blade when drawing a temper, so likely as not, annealing the blade will be the outcome. You can try heating the blade to below its critical temperature to begin with, it will not turn red but will become blue. Allow it to cool and test the "springyness" again to judge the result. If it bends and stays bent, you have seriously overcooked it. If it is still too hard, repeat the treatment. If you have overcooked it, straighten the blade after getting it red hot, quench in a barrel of water deep enough to take the whole blade(that makes it really hard again) and repeat the proces, this time applying less heat.
If you want a really good blade to whack things with, drop Matthew a line, he is a far, far better blacksmith in swords then I am and takes much pride in making excellent stuff.
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - Vindex - 03-20-2011
Been having internet issues since moving so just catching up...
Looking good, jvrjenivs. Brave photographer:wink: unless he/she had a long lense on the camera.
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - jvrjenivs - 03-21-2011
Quote:Looking good, jvrjenivs. Brave photographer :wink: unless he/she had a long lense on the camera.
Well, I guess she is a very brave photographer, as she was sitting down on her knees, when some crazy guy with little riding experience and in sword attack was galloping at her
But yes, things are coming together now. We will have 4 riders up for this summer. Hopefully extended to 6 for next season. Yesterday we had a small event at the Historical Openairmuseum, Eindhoven with 3 of our riders and a civilian companion on horseback. Was quite exciting to ride in front of the public.
(hopefully some pictures will follow, but there were some problems with the camera, which need to sorted out first). Going to make my Munich chamfron fit my warhorse this week
Some more pieces laying around in the workshop as well, so this all will keep me busy for a long time. But it surely is worth all effort. I'm appreciating riding more and more everytime I get back in the saddle
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - jvrjenivs - 03-22-2011
Well, didn't got the problem with the photo's totally solved. But here are a couple, all a bit photoshopped to get away the 'blueish glow' in different levels of succes.
![[Image: show1.jpg]](http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/jvrjenivs/romanCavalry/show1.jpg)
![[Image: home1.jpg]](http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/jvrjenivs/romanCavalry/home1.jpg)
![[Image: home2.jpg]](http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/jvrjenivs/romanCavalry/home2.jpg)
![[Image: home3.jpg]](http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/jvrjenivs/romanCavalry/home3.jpg)
![[Image: home4.jpg]](http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/jvrjenivs/romanCavalry/home4.jpg)
![[Image: home5.jpg]](http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/jvrjenivs/romanCavalry/home5.jpg)
Re: Interested in Roman Riding? - John Conyard - 03-26-2011
I hope your shows will raise some funds so you can invest in more kit.
Our first show is on the ealry May Bank Holiday. It is still rather cold for camping up here. But our riders are practising very hard most days, with lots of falls and spills.
Cookie is a possible for me, but I still love Murph's belligerent nature.