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+--- Thread: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? (/showthread.php?tid=15617)
Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Gladius Hispaniensis - 08-12-2009
Ave
The reason I ask is because there was a poem written by Theodosius Grammaticus celebrating the Byzantine repulse of the Arab fleet that attacked Constantinople in 674 C.E. in which he mentions something to that effect. The poem is rather long but the relevant portion is this one:
Where are the twin decked, fire throwing ships, and again, the single decked ships, also swift in the battle step?
That single line seems to indicate that the Arabs may have used a form of Greek Fire, which was, after all, invented by a refugee from Baalbek in Lebanon. Any thoughts?
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Sean Manning - 08-13-2009
Hi,
Yes, the Moslem world eventually learned to use petrolium-based incindiaries, and used them enthusiastically (even things like one-man flamethrowers and clay 'grenades'). The Arabic word for them is something like "naptha." I'm not sure when different Moslem powers started to use it, but David Niccole's works would probably be an accessable source.
Sean
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Gladius Hispaniensis - 08-13-2009
Thanks for that info, Sean. I'll look up David Niccole. Yes, I believe the Arabic word is nafta or something similar. I'm rather surprised they had it so early on. That particular attack on Constantinople was carried out in the very early years of the Umayyad dynasty.
Imad
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Epictetus - 08-13-2009
Various flammable substances were used by different peoples at different times, but supposedly Greek fire had some rather special qualities, like the delivery mechanism, burning on water and sticking to targets. I've never heard of any other group using this particular substance, but anything is possible.
Just out of curiousity, how sure are you of the subject of that line? That single line doesn't say if they are Greek ships or Arab ships. I assume that in the larger context it is clear that he is speaking about Arab ships?
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Gladius Hispaniensis - 08-14-2009
Quote:Various flammable substances were used by different peoples at different times, but supposedly Greek fire had some rather special qualities, like the delivery mechanism, burning on water and sticking to targets. I've never heard of any other group using this particular substance, but anything is possible.Precisely, in the larger context you realise he is speaking about the Arabs. He is basically taunting them and brings up several points, one of them being that their fire-throwing ships availed them nothing against the will of God.
Just out of curiousity, how sure are you of the subject of that line? That single line doesn't say if they are Greek ships or Arab ships. I assume that in the larger context it is clear that he is speaking about Arab ships?
Imad
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Alanus - 08-16-2009
I think that what he meant was "Where are your fire-shooting ships?" as opposed to the Greek ships which were pumping naptha onto the hapless Arabs.
There's been quite a bit of speculation on how old Greek Fire actually is. It could date back to earlier centuries AD, but it was always produced in the Lavant and Mid East, localities that contained natural pools of naptha (much like crude oil). It was mixed with sulpher and sawdust, I think, and might go back to the era of Constantine. (Supposedly, he developed a fleet of manouverable dromons which may have had a flame-throwing pump on their foredeck.) Even earlier, it appears that Zenobia's defenders of Palmyra tossed burning naptha onto the Romans.
hock:
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-16-2009
The Greeks were using a flame thrower of sorts in the BC, long before. I would imagine the flame pumped through would not have been
from a wood fire, but of some naptha substance. I can't recall the exact details, but I think it was a Beoetian device?
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Alanus - 08-17-2009
Salve, Gaius
That's what I thought. It was fairly early and an actual predecessor of the Vietnam Era flamethrower, not the one used in WWII which used kerosene. Not sure why it went out of favor, possibly too difficult to keep in repair. I suppose there may have been a moral reason, but I doubt it. :roll:
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-17-2009
I seem to recall an illustration in Connelly's Greece and Rome at War. It looked large and unweildly, probably only usefull in seiges for burning down a gate rapidly? And also stopping a sally through the gate at the same time possibly!
Re: Is it possible the Arabs used Greek Fire? - Alanus - 08-18-2009
Quote:I seem to recall an illustration in Connelly's Greece and Rome at War. It looked large and unweildly, probably only usefull in seiges for burning down a gate rapidly? And also stopping a sally through the gate at the same time possibly!
A couple of years ago (actually maybe six or seven), one of the "history" TV shows did a reenactment of the more mobile version, even built with leather gaskets. The thing was awesome! Even had to wear fireproof suits just in case they set themselves on fire. They placed a sailboat as the target, and kapow!-- the boat went up like a it was hit with napalm... which is more or less what the Romans' naptha-sulphur-pine resin misture was.