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Ark of the Covenant - Jona Lendering - 06-18-2009
At least, that's what the Coptic Patriarch says, and who are we to disagree with His Holiness? Here's the interview, in Italian; and here's an article, also in Italian. If I understand it correctly, there is indeed a relic in Ethiopia that is believed to be the real Ark of the Covenant (but is probably a medieval fake).
Re: Ark of the Covenant - john m roberts - 06-18-2009
There's an easy test for genuineness: does it melt peoples' faces off?
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Narukami - 06-19-2009
:oops: :oops: :oops:
:?
Narukami
Re: Ark of the Covenant - M. Demetrius - 06-19-2009
Well, if you find something you THINK is the Ark, I'd suggest you don't handle it, unless you're a properly dressed and properly prepared Levite. Uzzah was the last recorded person who did (but wasn't the previous description), and it didn't go well for him.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Jona Lendering - 06-19-2009
Joking apart now, the Ethiopian church has indeed a tradition that goes back to Secon Temple Judaism. The Book of Henoch was at first believed to be a medieval text, but eventually revolutionized our understanding of the world of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and early Christianity. The object the Ethiopians want to show the world may be really, really ancient, although it cannot be genuine. Still, I see no reason why the Jewish temple of Elephantine (fifth century BCE) or Leontopolis or Heracleopolis (third century BCE) would not have made some vessels of its own, according to the blueprint offered in the Torah. Once islam came, the believers, whether Jewish or Christian, may have thought it prudent to bring it to the south. So, the object will not be genuine, but very interesting to understand Second Temple Judaism.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-19-2009
This was the subject of a documentary a few years back, where they found a small church in Ethiopia, entry into which was barred to all! :roll: It was claimed the Covenant was held inside. I wonder if this interview says the same thing?
Re: Ark of the Covenant - M. Demetrius - 06-19-2009
Jona, I wasn't joking. I have also heard about this alleged "original" Ark of the Covenant. It is possible that the original was NOT carried out by the Babylonians or the Romans, but hidden somewhere when it was clear they were going to take Jerusalem, separately of course.
I don't know of any mention of the original Ark or even a reproduction being in the treasures taken from the Second Temple by the Romans. Lamps, bowls, small implements and furnishings, yes. Seems like the Ark would have been prominently displayed in the sculptures, and probably not melted down along with the other items taken.
I'm not an expert, though, so don't take my word for it. The Raiders movie was very silly in how that scene was depicted. I doubt the German soldiers would have gotten nearly that far, and also doubt that Levites in that day would have cooperated with them. It was forbidden for anyone but the High Priest to touch the Ark, as you know, even the priests who carried it only touched it with a pole threaded through its rings.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Jona Lendering - 06-19-2009
Quote:Jona, I wasn't joking.And I wasn't referring to you. I first thought I'd write that I found the jokes about Indiana Jones a but cheap, but decided to leave out the part that would have clarified my aim. You know you often make me smile, but I am aware that you can be very serious as well.
Quote:I have also heard about this alleged "original" Ark of the Covenant. It is possible that the original was NOT carried out by the Babylonians or the Romans, but hidden somewhere when it was clear they were going to take Jerusalem, separately of course.The object probably disappeared in Babylonian times. The Books of the Maccabees already describe about its disappearance in terms that I would consider to be legend.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-19-2009
I had always thought the object being carried in the right hand side of the relief on the Arch of Titus was the Ark.....
The box carried on poles behind the crossed items, behind what looks to be a standard of something similar, the term for that shape escapes me at the moment.
![[Image: Rome2008147.jpg]](http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q315/RomanLegioX/Rome2008147.jpg)
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Jona Lendering - 06-19-2009
Quote:I had always thought the object being carried in the right hand side of the relief on the Arch of Titus was the Ark.You're not the only one, but it is from left to right the the Menorah, the Hazozra trumpets, and the Table of Showbread. The Table was later seized by the Visgoths, who brought it to Toledo. Here, it was captured by the Muslims in 711, who sent it to Damascus. After that, we lose trace of it.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Peroni - 06-23-2009
There was a very interesting documentary on UK TV that suggested the Ark was actually a large drum, and not the typical box/chest that is normally thought of as being the receptacle.
The Lemba people, who claim to have Jewish descent, have a tradition that their ancestors carried the Ark calling it the ngoma lungundu or "voice of God", south and hid it in a deep cave in Dumghe mountain, the spiritual home of the Lemba people.
In a documentary aired in the U.K. on April 14, 2008, Tudor Parfitt, taking a literalist approach to the Biblical story, describes his research into their claim. He says that the object is described as having similar attributes to the Ark. It was of similar size, it was carried on poles by priests, it was not allowed to touch the ground, it was revered as a voice of their God, and was used as a weapon of great power sweeping enemies aside. Parfitt's book The Lost Ark of the Covenant (2008) suggests that the Ark was taken to Arabia following the Second Book of Maccabees, and cites Arabic sources which maintain it was brought in distant times to the Yemen. The Lemba clan called the Buba which was supposed to have brought the Ark to Africa have a genetic signature called the Cohen Modal Haplotype which connects them with the ancient priesthood in Jerusalem. The Lemba also came to Africa from the Yemen. Lemba tradition maintains that the Ark spent some time in Sena in south Yemen. Later, it was taken across the sea to East Africa and may have been taken inland at the time of the Great Zimbabawe civilisation. Some time after the arrival of the Lemba with the Ark in Africa according to their oral traditions, it self-destructed. Using a core from the original the Lemba priests constructed a new one. This replica was discovered in a cave by a Swedish German missionary Harald von Sicard in the 1940s and eventually found its way to the Museum of Human Science in Harare. Parfitt had it radio-carbon dated to about 1350 which date coincides with the sudden end of the Great Zimbabwe civilisation, Jewish sources in the Talmud as well as the Jewish exegete Rashi (Rashi's commentary of Deteronomy) suggest that there were two Arks: one was the original simple wooden Ark of Moses described in the Book of Deuteronomy, the other was the later golden Ark made by Bezalel as described in the Book of Exodus. Rabbinic opinion maintains that the first of these Arks was the Ark of War and the second was a ceremonial object which stayed in the Temple. Parfitt suggests that the Ark he found was the descendant of the Ark of War. He Parfitt suggests that the Ark, being wooden, and being used as a weapon, was replicated at least once, and possibly many times. Parfitt offers the suggestion that the wooden ark may always have been a drum as well as a weapon of some sort, like the ngoma. It was often found in musical processions, David danced in front of it and it was covered over with a piece of leather. Parfitt makes no mention as to the principal contents of the Ark, the stone tablets.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - M. Demetrius - 06-23-2009
Very interesting stuff, Peroni. Thanks for bringing that to the folks across the water who don't get that TV channel.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Narukami - 06-24-2009
Quote:M. Demetrius:3fc6sao4 Wrote:Jona, I wasn't joking.And I wasn't referring to you. I first thought I'd write that I found the jokes about Indiana Jones a but cheap, but decided to leave out the part that would have clarified my aim. You know you often make me smile, but I am aware that you can be very serious as well.
:oops: :oops: :oops:
:|
Narukami
Re: Ark of the Covenant - Jona Lendering - 06-26-2009
Disappointment... His Holiness apparently was misquoted.
Re: Ark of the Covenant - M. Demetrius - 06-26-2009
Well, my Italian is pretty rusty, but maybe someone else could provide an English translation. I won't try, but I think I have the gist of it. The article itself seems to be contradictory. The sculpture shown doesn't look like the Bible description to me, at all.