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+--- Thread: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! (/showthread.php?tid=1531)
Greetings - AuxArcher - 06-25-2007
Hello, everyone. My first post, and perhaps a bit late for this topic? I hope not.
Briefly about myself. My name is Dane, and I'm a reenactor from way, way back (US Civil War), and recently discovered Roman living history / reenacting (Legio III Cyrenaica from across New England). Clearly, this is a vast subject it would take lifetimes to fully explore, so, having just one (that I know of), I am concentrating on archery and larger missile throwers.
On bows: I have just about finished the wooden core of a composite bow, my first of this kind after building all wood self bows, and the project is quite exciting and challenging. I'm using the dimension of a bone stiffener from Bar Hill for the dimesions of the ears, and kind of winging it regarding dimensions (width of bow, length of handle, etc), since (unless I am way off), no Mary Rose finds of existing Roman military bows exist. A solid, relatively stable composite pulling moderately at 50 to 70 / 80 pounds is what I am shooting for for this first one, with sinewed back, water buffalo belly, and hide glue only for the construction. A full powered war bow will be for later.
But aside from that, I fell in love with this little Scorpio Minor (what I think is an apt name for her). So, I gotta build me one! I have a full sized small scorpio (scorpio major?) under construction, so a concurrent hand held model would be lots of fun. One of the biggest challenges would be, for me, npot the wooden parts, but the bronze washers and plates this reconstruction features.
So, I have to learn to cast in bronze, I say to myself, for both of these machines. To that end, I'm about to build my first furnace, which will allow me also the ability as well to cast bronze bilobate and trilobate arrow heads (and other Roman toys), something you simply can not find for ancient archery. The medieval guys have a devil of a time finding a smith who can make historically correct bodkins and such, and anyone trying to do a Roman archery impression finds even less to go with, or crafts people who can produce these esoteric items.
I'll be sure and post some photos of my work (down the road near and far as the case may be), of course.
So, all that being said (I can be as vorbose as the next guy, be careful), does anyone have any of the basic dimensions of this little machine? Most important is the inner dimensions of the washers, so I can work out the basic proportions. the bronze hardware I will be able to cast fairly easily, and the woodwork will, while not easy, certainly a bit easier than the large scorpio. Any other thoughts about my little pending project, don't hesitate, even if it is a "run away, run away." A big dream, probably not to be realized, is to have sinew or horsehair springs for the scorpio major, but with this little baby, sinew ropes are much more in the realm of the possible. Cordage making, while tedious, is very gratifying as well.
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-26-2007
Did the Greeks not invent the manuballista? Would this thing not be more usefull protecting a fortification? It looks a bit awkward for a man held weapon?
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - Iulus - 06-26-2007
Quote:Did the Greeks not invent the manuballista?
Well,they invented the "gastraphetes",but that thing works quite differently than a manuballista,does not it?
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-26-2007
You're probably right! I was just thinking along the lines of a manual crossbow type projectile propellor....... :oops:
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - Robert - 06-26-2007
Salve!
I recently had a long good look at the manuballista reconstruction of the Xanten find with the original alongside. It's in Nijmegen at present and it's a reconstruction which follows the original find down to the last millimeter. It would seem most unpractical to lug this much hardware around a battlefield and try to fire it out of hand, as any archer would be more mobile and have a higher rate of fire. This type of weapon would IMHO really come into it's own as a mobile artillery piece, firing long range projectiles into approaching troops from a rampart either in a castellum or fortress or from the castle of a marauding liburna. This is also the way early crossbows were used, rampart defenses (which is what took out Richard the Lionhearted). The heavy crossbows had a detachable ratchet and gear mechanism which could be slotted to the back. Some even had a windlass build into it.
A weapon like this could very well have had a two man firing team, quickly moving it around to provide firepower where needed. There would be no need for a tripod or fixed rest, just load, lean and let rip. This does not exclude the fact that it may have been constructed as a "belly-bow", by the way, as that type of cocking is fast and easy. It would only require an extra pair of hands to secure the trigger once cocked and swiftly drop in a bolt. This would really pick up the firing cycle!
Man, this really calls for some experiments
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - AuxArcher - 06-26-2007
Salve, Robert. This exactly why I want to build one of these cool machines. I found out quickly by using my still new staff sling that I have a thousand questions about how one was used in combat.
It kind of reminds me of my days humping the M60. A true pain, especially for someone as small in stature as me (5'6"), so naturally, I never got to just carry the M16. It was considered a crew served weapon, for two, a gunner and assistant gunner, who got stuck with most of the ammo and the damn tripod. I can imagine the AG for this baby having to hump all the bolts, as well as the rope tensioning wrench and whatever else you need.
I can also see this as a belly cocker, so no need for a winch assembly. Ash and other hardwoods are not exactly delicate, after all. It would also, like the crossbow, be relatively easy for someone to learn to handle it proficiently, unlike the bow, which is a highly practiced skill.
Have they published dimensions or better, plans of this machine?
Manuballista - Paullus Scipio - 06-27-2007
Ave , Dane !
Mention of the M-60 rings bells ! It truly earned its nickname of "the pig!".
The Aussie army got stuck with this 'lemon' too !
God, we hated it ( and yearned for a belt-fed Bren gun as the ideal medium M.G. ), but it was worth its (considerable) weight in gold in a firefight...........even if you spent the rest of your life cleaning and maintaining 'the pig' ! )
Sorry to go 'off-topic' !
Re: Manuballista - AuxArcher - 06-27-2007
Quote:Ave , Dane !
Mention of the M-60 rings bells ! It truly earned its nickname of "the pig!".
The Aussie army got stuck with this 'lemon' too !
God, we hated it ( and yearned for a belt-fed Bren gun as the ideal medium M.G. ), but it was worth its (considerable) weight in gold in a firefight...........even if you spent the rest of your life cleaning and maintaining 'the pig' ! )
Sorry to go 'off-topic' !
Ave, Paullus Scipio. Good to find another victim of the "pig." I spoke to a machine gun collector recently who had all sorts of toys on display, but he had no idea we called the M60 that! And cleaning it - indeed a big arggg.
Since the M60 was really good for that all important supressive fire, why not this manuballista as well? The enemy would certainly keep their heads down with all those huge bolts flying at them, with a different (I am guessing) tragectory than archer fire. At closer ranges, maybe a faster velocity and harder to spot the bolts before you got skewered? Trying one out would answer some of my questions, of course.
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-27-2007
Well, it would definately put the fear of {insert appropriate deity} in you if you were on the receiving end!
hock:
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - D B Campbell - 06-27-2007
Quote:Did the Greeks not invent the manuballista?If you look further back in the thread, you'll see that "manuballista" is usually reckoned to be the Latin version of the Greek word "cheiroballistra", which was the iron-framed, hand-held arrow-shooter of the Romans. (This is a completely different machine from the Xanten find.)
The Greeks definitely had a small arrow-shooting catapult, judging by the presence of a single small catapult washer (amongst a hoard of 21 assorted washers) in the ruins of a fortified farmstead in Epirus, apparently dating from the early/mid 2nd C BC.
We have no idea what they would have called such a machine, but it definitely wouldn't have been a manuballista!
Perhaps this is the skorpidion mentioned by Polybius (8.5.6).
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-27-2007
Well, up until this thread, I had not actually realised the Romans had a hand held torsion weapon. Hence my confusion with the "gastraphetes", which I had read about, but not recently! :oops:
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - D B Campbell - 06-27-2007
Quote:It would seem most unpractical to lug this much hardware around a battlefield and try to fire it out of hand, as any archer would be more mobile and have a higher rate of fire. This type of weapon would IMHO really come into it's own as a mobile artillery piece, firing long range projectiles into approaching troops from a rampart either in a castellum or fortress or from the castle of a marauding liburna.I think you're probably right, Robert.
With a modiolus (washer inner diameter) of 4.5cm, the Xanten catapult is a good bit bigger than Ephyra catapult #6, which is the only known (presumed?) hand-held catapult prior to the cheiroballistra. With a modiolus of 3.4cm, the Ephyra machine was a "1-footer", meaning that its arrows were 1 Greek foot in length (0.31m); this is a comfortable size for manhandling. The Xanten machine, on the other hand, was perhaps intended as a 2-span catapult, shooting arrows 0.40m long. It could well have been stand-mounted -- not necessarily a fixed tripod, but a portable prop in case there wasn't a handy rampart to lean it on!
Of course, it's difficult to tell until we see the official publication.
Re: Aitor Alert! Manuballista found! - AuxArcher - 06-27-2007
Quote:Robert:1umn4jn8 Wrote:It would seem most unpractical to lug this much hardware around a battlefield and try to fire it out of hand, as any archer would be more mobile and have a higher rate of fire. This type of weapon would IMHO really come into it's own as a mobile artillery piece, firing long range projectiles into approaching troops from a rampart either in a castellum or fortress or from the castle of a marauding liburna.I think you're probably right, Robert.
With a modiolus (washer inner diameter) of 4.5cm, the Xanten catapult is a good bit bigger than Ephyra catapult #6, which is the only known (presumed?) hand-held catapult prior to the cheiroballistra. With a modiolus of 3.4cm, the Ephyra machine was a "1-footer", meaning that its arrows were 1 Greek foot in length (0.31m); this is a comfortable size for manhandling. The Xanten machine, on the other hand, was perhaps intended as a 2-span catapult, shooting arrows 0.40m long. It could well have been stand-mounted -- not necessarily a fixed tripod, but a portable prop in case there wasn't a handy rampart to lean it on!
Of course, it's difficult to tell until we see the official publication.
When do you expect the paper to come out?
4.5cm / 1.8 inch inner washer diameter makes for rougly a 11.7 inch to 1 foot wide spring frame. That is beefy, but not impossible to lug about if you had to. I reckon that these machines were much more cost effective to build than even the smallest scorpio, so I wonder how common such machines were? Each one would have been unique as well, even if they came out of the same workshop. Similar, but not carbon copies.
How much does this reproduction weigh? Anyone know?
A bolt that large is not terribly huge, as well. The arrows I make for my 50 and 60 lb. self bows (pales in power to what a war bow would have pulled, perhaps 100 - 150 or more), are 11/32" and 32" long. An arrow for a 100+ pound bow can be as large as 1/4 inch and run 35" long or more, to accomidate the long pull (behind the ear) needed to shoot them.
I agree, a portable stand of some sort would have been nice, much like the M60 AG lugging the tripod about. Crew served weapons like that type of machine gun have a built in biopod, so maybe something that folded down from the stock / slider base?
Aitor alert! - Paullus Scipio - 06-27-2007
As to what these small machines could do... recall that the trajectory would be relatively flat, the projectile invisible 'til it struck... no defence...catapult = kata peltes lit. 'shield piercer'. Not to mention the whirring sound...
And everybody has seen the photo of that poor ancient Briton defending 'Mai Dun' in Dorset with the bolt head embedded in, and almost severing his spine ?
The psychological impact of the use of these weapons would be all out of proportion to their physical effects. ----which reminds me, I think I recall a siege described (in North Italy, perhaps? ) where a Goth (?) was impaled to a tree, and the besiegers fled.......can't recall the incident or source in detail. Anyone recall it, or similar incidents ?
Re: Aitor alert! - D B Campbell - 06-28-2007
Quote:The psychological impact of the use of these weapons would be all out of proportion to their physical effects. ----which reminds me, I think I recall a siege described (in North Italy, perhaps? ) where a Goth (?) was impaled to a tree, and the besiegers fled.......can't recall the incident or source in detail. Anyone recall it, or similar incidents ?This is Procopius, Wars 5.23.9-12, in which, during Vitigis' siege of Rome (AD 536), a Goth was (as you rightly say, Paul) nailed to a tree by a ballista bolt, shot with deadly accuracy.
Project Gutenberg has the English translation (from the Loeb edition): "But this man by some chance was hit by a missile from an engine which was on a tower at his left. And passing through the corselet and the body of the man, the missile sank more than half its length into the tree, and pinning him to the spot where it entered the tree, it suspended him there a corpse. And when this was seen by the Goths they fell into great fear, and getting outside the range of missiles, they still remained in line, but no longer harassed those on the wall."