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+--- Thread: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum (/showthread.php?tid=14946)
Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Caballo - 04-09-2009
Hi,
Thanks to another thread on the lost column of Arcadius (c 402 AD) , we now have another source other than the Notitia Dignitatum for Late Roman use of manicae- in fact six manicae are shown on the base of the column.
![[Image: column_arcadius_1.JPG]](http://www.livius.org/a/turkey/istanbul/column_arcadius_1.JPG)
Here are three separate copies of the Notitia- from Munich, Oxford and the only partially preserved Walsingham copy.
Notitia Dignitatum- fabricae. Munich copy.
![[Image: b_dasende4.jpg]](http://www.legioxi.ch/bilder/bi_his/b_dasende4.jpg)
Fabricae -Bodleian Oxford copy
![[Image: fabricae.jpg]](http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/gaddis/HST354/Mar18/fabricae.jpg)
Fabricae from the Walsingham copy of the Notitia (not quite so clear, but it shows that the strange curved blades under the spears in the Oxford version were actually manicae)
![[Image: WalsMagOffOri.jpg]](http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/WalsMagOffOri.jpg)
Its also interesting to compare the three different versions of the same picture, presumably copied from the same source. I suspect that if you were to analyse what each has in common, you would get close to recreating something like the original (a great thesis for someone?)
Thoughts?
Cheers
Paul
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - mcbishop - 04-10-2009
Fragments of what may be an armguard were found in a 4th century AD context in the signal tower at Bowes Moor next to the A66 (the route Cerialis probably used to get up to Carlisle in AD 71/2), Published by yours truly (pp.169-70) in:
Blaise Vyner (ed.) 2001: Stainmore. The Archaeology of a North Pennine Pass, Tees Archaeology Monographs 1 (Hartlepool)
Note also the recently published example from León, dated to the last quarter of the 3rd century AD:
Joaquín Aurrecoechea, Carmelo Fernández Ibáñez, Victorino García Marcos, Ángel Morillo (2008): 'Un protector laminado de brazo (manica) procedente del campamento de la legio VII Gemina en León', Archivo Español de Arqueología, 81, 255-64
Mike Bishop
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Cheyenne - 04-10-2009
So could I ask what are the strange looking helmets on these pages? I haven't seen any archaeological evidence for head protection of that shape for our period. They look more like 19th century firefighters helmets!
Claire
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - john m roberts - 04-10-2009
19th century firefighter (and dragoon) helmets were often inspired by classical models. The classical revival was everywhere in those years, from architecture to artillerymen's swords.
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - John Conyard - 04-11-2009
They could be interpreted as ridge helms with attached cheek and neck plates.
But I can never come to terms with the two-headed axe.
Mike, the fragment of the limb armour from the signal tower at Bowes, was it designed to cover the upper half of the arm, or wrap completely around the arm?
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Caballo - 04-11-2009
Thanks Mike- though having some difficulties tracking down the articles! Separate email sent (now probably languishing in the Bishop spam filter) with an attachment showing some recent attempts to recreate the manica strapping and lining.
Cheers
Paul/ Caballo
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Iagoba - 04-11-2009
There is a photo of the manica mentioned before by Mike Bishopin this article (in Spanish...), dedicated mostly to the Segmentatas in Spain, in the page 174.
It´s worth of reading, but, don´t expect me to translate whole (at least this month :mrgreen: )
It was found at Puerta Castillo-Santa Marina, under a collapse inside a building, dated on the third quarter of the 3rd century.
As an extra, in the page 177 it´s an scheme of the use of the different types of segmentata according to the findings in Hispania :wink:
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Caballo - 04-11-2009
Many thanks for adding this- very interesting.
My Spanish is almost limited to cervesa and paella, so I'm a bit slow here- but are they arguing that Kalkriese lorica were in use until 100 AD and Newstead until 350?
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Iagoba - 04-11-2009
Well, the use of the kalkriese is based on a lone find at Iruña:
[url:1p4mruw3]http://www.veleia.com/english/el_museo.php?niv=5&letra=H[/url] (this one it´s in barbarian, sorry, English :mrgreen: )
The Newstead usage until that late date, it´s more sure, as there have been quite a lot of find in León, Puente Castro, Lancia y Astorga.
...We are hijacking the thread? :? maybe it´s worth opening a new one.
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - mcbishop - 04-11-2009
Quote:Many thanks for adding this- very interesting.
My Spanish is almost limited to cervesa and paella, so I'm a bit slow here- but are they arguing that Kalkriese lorica were in use until 100 AD and Newstead until 350?
There is an article by Joaquin Aurrecoechea in the forthcoming JRMES 14/15 on the revised chronology of lorica seg and he has agreed to produce an English paper on the Leon find for a future volume of JRMES.
Mike Bishop
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Robert Vermaat - 04-12-2009
Hi Caballo,
Quote:Fabricae from the Walsingham copy of the Notitia (not quite so clear, but it shows that the strange curved blades under the spears in the Oxford version were actually manicae)Were they? The Walsingham MS seems to have 'interpreted' a whole lot more than the other two. If those shapes under the spears were manicae, then what were the shapes above that and to the left (other than arm and leg defences)?
Hi Claire,
Quote:So could I ask what are the strange looking helmets on these pages? I haven't seen any archaeological evidence for head protection of that shape for our period. They look more like 19th century firefighters helmets!They look like 14th-c. interpretations of Roman helmets to me. Later versions even show eye-slits! The Walsingham MS redraws the helmets into (contemporary) new shapes.
Hi John,
Quote:I can never come to terms with the two-headed axe.Sometimes I doubt whether it was an axe at all. Look how in earlier versions shapes seem to touch, only to 'drift away' in later MSS? Maybe we had bowcases there, or one axe and two other shapes. Like those triangles on the right upper side and the odd 'banana-shaped thingies' which might be ocraea, or something different entirely.
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Urselius - 04-13-2009
The copyists were limited to what was familiar to them in interpreting what they were copying. Contemporary helmets didn't have articulated cheekpieces, thus the debasement of these features to the strange dangling triangles, though the crests, being at least partially familiar, were retained in a recognisable form.
In the Oxford MS there are two things (mid right hand side) which look a lot like they could be the "iron-tipped clubs" (maces) used by Constantine's cavalry to knock Maxentius' cataphracts silly at Turin.
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Caballo - 04-13-2009
Quote:Vortigern wrote: Fabricae from the Walsingham copy of the Notitia (not quite so clear, but it shows that the strange curved blades under the spears in the Oxford version were actually manicae)
Were they? The Walsingham MS seems to have 'interpreted' a whole lot more than the other two. If those shapes under the spears were manicae, then what were the shapes above that and to the left (other than arm and leg defences)?
They all appear to be manicae/ leg defences, IMHO.
Quote:The copyists were limited to what was familiar to them in interpreting what they were copying. Contemporary helmets didn't have articulated cheekpieces, thus the debasement of these features to the strange dangling triangles, though the crests, being at least partially familiar, were retained in a recognisable form.
Thanks- that had been really puzzling me. Good thought!
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - Cheyenne - 04-15-2009
Quote:I can never come to terms with the two-headed axe.
Maybe these are actually interpretations of the Dolabra? Its just a stab in the dark however!
Re: Late Manicae and comparing the Notitia Dignitatum - John Conyard - 04-15-2009
We have axe hammers, maybe it is an interpretation of that. Anyway, two-handed axes for everybody on the May B.H.