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+--- Thread: Gladius Handle Help... (/showthread.php?tid=14538)
Gladius Handle Help... - Nihonius Legio - 02-02-2009
Hey all, It's been a while.
I got a dremel tool for Christmas and am planning to use it to make knife handles. A few days ago I dremeled a gladius style handle (though with no real planning put into it). I'm in need of a little help with how to mount a blade into it (though I dont have one yet).
This is what I have so far.
![[Image: 100_0094.jpg]](http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s234/Nihon89/100_0094.jpg)
![[Image: 100_0093.jpg]](http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s234/Nihon89/100_0093.jpg)
I know there is a pseudo-pommel on the handle, thats temporary. I'll cut it off later. The wood I'm using is Russian Olive, which I have no idea if the Romans used. I believe it really is originally from Russia so they may have been able to get it. The handle isnt finished, I still need to shape it alittle and polish it somehow.
What I need to know is how large of a hole I need to drill through the core to set the tang through, and also how the blade and handle are held together. Not even the Leg XX handbook seemed to mention it well enough, unless I missed something. I know this probably isnt that great looking, but I really never put much plan into it other than drawing lines on a stick and dremeling away.
Comments? Help? It's all appreciated.
Thanks
-Nihonius
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Magnus - 02-02-2009
Take your drill bits and hold them against the tang of your sword. Use the one that is about the same thickness, but slightly smaller. Once you've drilled it out, the tang obviously won't fit. So, to make it work, you'll need to file the drilled holes to accept the tang. You can also wrap some sand paper around something that will fit down the hole.
The handle is held on via friction/compression between the pommel and handguard. The handguard rests against the blade. The handle rests against the handguard. The pommel rests against the handle tightly once the tang is peened over a washer on the end of the pommel (or it's a threaded tang and you use a nut of some kind).
Hope that helps!
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS - 02-02-2009
There is also the burn-in method which is a time-honoured method that sword makers use is also a very probable method... especially when dealing with harder materials like bone.
For sword and sword-component crafting, I can think of no better reference material than Jim Hrisoulas.
[url:2mnp4669]http://www.atar.com/old/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=5&MMN_position=6:6[/url]
Looks pretty decent so far, keep going!
Though personally, I'd do the drilling / burn-in first to avoid wrecking all that work :mrgreen:
What Dremmel fittings did you use to bring it down like that anyway?
Regards,
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Matthew Amt - 02-02-2009
You should probably widen the grooves a little to make the "crests" more pointed rather than having flat areas between the grooves. Something like this:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/bonegrip.jpg
Most grips were octagonal or hexagonal, but there were a few rounded ones (I'm thinking mostly first century AD, here!). Yeah, definitely cut both ends off once you get the rest of it done--it shouldn't project beyond your fist at either end when you hold it.
I'm guessing the grooves are brown because the inner wood is that color. Should be an interesting 2-tone effect. Just be careful with the Dremel not to burn the wood when working at high speed. That's one reason I just use hand tools for making grips.
If you get a "saw" bit for your drill, you can use it to carve sideways through the wood to a certain extent, helpful for making a slot through a block or long piece of wood. The tricky part is that most grips are longer than most drill bits, so you have to drill from both ends and hope the holes line up nicely! That's reason enough to use bone, it comes with a hole already in place.
Once all the parts are done, stick them in place on the tang, put a washer over the tip of the tang, cut off most of the excess, and carefully peen the end of the tang down over the washer. That holds everything solidly. If you have a threaded tang, you can still do that, just tighten the nut down and peen the tang over it (assuming you aren't using a cap nut that the tang doesn't go all the way through). Ah, here we go, photo of 3 pommels. Cap nut on the left (not authentic!), and 2 nuts with tang peened over:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/gladpom1.jpg
Good luck!
Matthew
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Nihonius Legio - 02-02-2009
Quote:There is also the burn-in method which is a time-honoured method that sword makers use is also a very probable method... especially when dealing with harder materials like bone.
For sword and sword-component crafting, I can think of no better reference material than Jim Hrisoulas.
[url:3uad57ca]http://www.atar.com/old/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=5&MMN_position=6:6[/url]
Looks pretty decent so far, keep going!
Though personally, I'd do the drilling / burn-in first to avoid wrecking all that work :mrgreen:
What Dremmel fittings did you use to bring it down like that anyway?
Regards,
For Quintus
Hey thanks for the suggestions. I looked at the author you mentioned and found a big discount on one of his books and just bought it. I hope it's pretty good!
The dremel bit I used is the number 407 1/2" sanding bit.
Here is the site, I'm no good at making links...
http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Attachments ... px?pid=407
For Matthew,
Ya, I was pleasantly surprised how dark the core of Russian Olive is. It's a nice mix of color with an interesting grain in the core. I did burn the wood a few times while dremeling, but its pretty easy to sand off by hand. I've never heard of a threaded tang but I'll have to look into it. Does it have grooves like a screw cap? Whould the Romans have had such a thing?
Thank you all for your suggestions and help. I'll have to finish my handle soon and get working on the other parts. I'm debating on whether to buy a blade or try finding the tools to grind one. Thanks again.
-Nihonius
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Matthew Amt - 02-02-2009
Quote:For Matthew,
...I've never heard of a threaded tang but I'll have to look into it. Does it have grooves like a screw cap? Whould the Romans have had such a thing?
Never heard of a threaded tang?? Goodness, you ARE new at this! Not a problem. Many modern repros have threaded tangs, just like a bolt or screw. That is NOT something the Romans ever did, it's just a modern convenience. It's not authentic, and in fact the nuts used are often glaringly modern, but it does allow the owner to remove any incorrect pieces and alter or replace them. So we don't tend to complain. Easy enough to put a more period-looking nut on and peen the tang over it. In short, if you can't see the tang peened over the nut or finial or whatever is on there, it's not completely accurate.
If you're making your own blade, or having one custom made, that's all moot of course. Good luck!
Matthew
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - brennivs - tony drake - 02-02-2009
![[Image: robert2-1.jpg]](http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t272/brennivs/robert2-1.jpg)
I hope this pic will help
D Regards Brennivs
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 02-02-2009
Nice handle!
A thing important is to avoid use "fresh" or recent cuted wood, because is possible to expands or even breaks. I have made two pommels in some copiced wood, and now the two have a 5 mm ridges.
What's, shortly, the burn method cited?
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS - 02-02-2009
Lucius - You are bang on in that the chosen wood HAS to be Seasoned.
The burn-in method is where you put a heatsink at the blade just after the tang to not anneal your blade if you have alreay heat treated it... if you haven't, it doesn't really matter.
Heat up your tang tip to cherry or hotter if your heat source will accomodate (Try MAPP gas, as it comes in small cannisters like propane but burns twice as hot. I'll never go back!) and press your handle onto the glowing tang. It really helps to deeply notch the center of the handle to keep the tang from skating along the surface.
It may take several times to get all the way through, but you get the most custom fit imaginable with no seams.
This is usually done when the handle is still in block form...
And of course you should wear 1 if not 2 thick welding gloves on the hand you are pushing with to protect your hands from radiant heat or slipping accidents.
Let the heat do the work and don't push with all of your might.
I have done it with a German hand and a half sword I forged a year or so ago.
Brennis - Awesome drawing mate, thanks!
Nihonius - If you are going to make the handle, you might as well grind yourself a Gladius to go along with it. If you do a search of the site, there is a play-by-play posted of one member doing it start to finsh.
Regards,
Artorivs
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Nihonius Legio - 02-02-2009
Wow, excellent drawing Brennivs! And thank you all for your help and answers.
Despite the efficiency of the threaded tang Matthew described, I think I'll likely end up going the traditional route here.
For the method of boring a hole through the handle, I would like to use the burning method sometime on a block of wood before I carve it. I'm a little afraid of burning myself or shoving the tang in at a bad angle with my handle already carved and thin. I'll drill it this time.
I think the wood should be ok now. I found the piece already cut by someone else and laying in a pile for who know how long. It's also been sitting in my dry basement since probably last September or October.
For the heat bore method, does anyone think a charcoal fire would get it hot enough? With some kind of bellows?
Also, where could I find an authentic nut for the sword?
-Nihonius
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Magnus - 02-02-2009
Quote:Also, where could I find an authentic nut for the sword?
-Nihonius
If your tang is not threaded, just use a washer, make one out of some scrap steel...just cut it into a good old square and fit it onto the tang then peen.
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS - 02-02-2009
for a forge you would need some sort of blower to get the heat up... the easy way is to use a hairdryer piped in. It is cheap and you can vary the air speed to a degree
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Nihonius Legio - 02-02-2009
Arent there nuts you can buy and still peen on? I'm sure a washer would work but a nice cap would probably look nice.
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Nihonius Legio - 02-03-2009
I'm looking on Ebay for deals on grinders to make a blade. I checked out a tutorial Brennivs did last year and all it describes as needed is a grinder and a few things. It seems there are several types of grinders out there. I found an "angle grinder" on Ebay and I wonder if that is what was meant.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Makita-9557PB-Angle ... 240%3A1318
Also, how do you even cut the blade out, no cutting tool was mentioned that I could see.
Thanks
-Nihonius
Re: Gladius Handle Help... - Magnus - 02-03-2009
Quote:I'm looking on Ebay for deals on grinders to make a blade. I checked out a tutorial Brennivs did last year and all it describes as needed is a grinder and a few things. It seems there are several types of grinders out there. I found an "angle grinder" on Ebay and I wonder if that is what was meant.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Makita-9557PB-Angle ... 240%3A1318
Also, how do you even cut the blade out, no cutting tool was mentioned that I could see.
Thanks
-Nihonius
A square washer is likely what was used on originals...
That angle grinder is basically the same one I have...that's all you need to make the blade. You can use the cut-off wheels (instead of the grinding ones) to cut off the "tip" of the sword. From there it's all grinding for the rough stages...then filing and then some sanding. Once you were done, I'd stick the blade into the oven at 300 degrees for about an hour, 3 times or so to "normalize" the steel. This removes all the stresses of the stock removal process, since the grinding can create a lot of different hardnesses on the blade due to heat. Not a huge deal if you're not planning on hitting the sword against anything.