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+--- Thread: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) (/showthread.php?tid=14046)
Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Cranke - 11-23-2008
Hi Folks,
I am seeking to understand how Roman legions were transported via sea.
I have found a lot of info about Triremes and Quinquiremes, but these ship types seem to be more like warships than troop transports.
For example:
Trireme
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme )
- ~20 deck crew
- 170 rowers
- 10-20 marines
- Total: ~200 men
Quinquereme
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinquereme )
- 50 crew
- 300 oarsmen
- 120 marines
- Total: ~470 men
Given the above manpower specs, there doesn't seem to be a lot of room for troop transportation.
Does anyone know what types of ship would be used to transport large numbers of legionnaires (ex. a consular army)? I am particularly interested in the Punic Wars period, such as when Scipio crossed to Africa.
Were the Triremes and Quinqueremes used mainly for navy-to-navy combat and raiding? Or were they also used for troop transport?
Did the Romans of this period have a separation between "warship" and "troop transport"?
Any help or references would be most appreciated.
/Cranke
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Robert Vermaat - 11-23-2008
Welcome to the forum Cranke.
Please write you real (first) name in your automated signature (to be found in your profile), it's a forum rule.
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Cranke - 11-23-2008
Done!
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Dutchhoplite - 11-24-2008
Didn't they use merchant vessels??
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Francois - 12-04-2008
Yes, as far as I know... During my researchs about the Civil Wars of the Republic, I noted the use of merchant ships for troops transportation... We don't know actually the size of each ship they used, so it is difficult to guess the exact number of ships needed for one legion... But they surely can use one thousand ships (I am thinking about the Lepidus' fleet during the campaign with Octavian against Sextus Pompey, in sicily...) or even more...
During the return of the Roman legions from Britain in 55 BC, Caesar gives some informations about the number of men carried by one of the ships he used... I could look for it if you wish...
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Praefectusclassis - 12-04-2008
The answer is: they used both, likely more merchants (when it's not mentioned) than warships, which would've been less effective and more unusual. But there are definitely plenty of examples of both.
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Francois - 12-04-2008
They certainly used what they could find...
But the war-ships were not designed for troops transportation and not very large... I don't know how many men they could carry... The ratio men/ships should not have been very interesting in the case of war-ships.
And this is particularly true when it comes about cavalry...
And what about supply ? The room available for food should have been very limited on war-ships, and the journey could not be very long (when you think about the 4 days it can take between Sicily and Africa...).
Could you give me some exemples about troops transportation on war-ships (during the Republic if possible) ? It could be interesting.
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Praefectusclassis - 12-04-2008
IIRC the origin of the famous 120 marines/quinquereme from Polybios is actually a calculation of troops on quinqueremes in transit to north Africa.
Otherwise:
Transport on warships and freighters: Appian, BC 5.58; 5.98 (troops on freighters, horses on warships); Ps.Caesar, B.Afr. 2. Appian, BC 2.88 seems to suggest that using warships as troop transports was normal: “He [Caesar] crossed the Hellespont in small boats because he lacked triremesâ€
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - sonic - 12-04-2008
Jasper Oorthuys\\n[quote]IIRC the origin of the famous 120 marines/quinquereme from Polybios is actually a calculation of troops on quinqueremes in transit to north Africa.
Otherwise:
Transport on warships and freighters: Appian, BC 5.58; 5.98 (troops on freighters, horses on warships); Ps.Caesar, B.Afr. 2. Appian, BC 2.88 seems to suggest that using warships as troop transports was normal: “He [Caesar] crossed the Hellespont in small boats because he lacked triremesâ€
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Praefectusclassis - 12-04-2008
Menander is pretty close to the 2nd punic war, actually.
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - sonic - 12-04-2008
Quote:Menander is pretty close to the 2nd punic war, actually.
Whoops!! :oops:
That'll teach me to post when I'm tired and not concentrating!
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - Francois - 12-05-2008
Jasper Oorthuys\\n[quote]IIRC the origin of the famous 120 marines/quinquereme from Polybios is actually a calculation of troops on quinqueremes in transit to north Africa.
Otherwise:
Transport on warships and freighters: Appian, BC 5.58; 5.98 (troops on freighters, horses on warships); Ps.Caesar, B.Afr. 2. Appian, BC 2.88 seems to suggest that using warships as troop transports was normal: “He [Caesar] crossed the Hellespont in small boats because he lacked triremesâ€
Re: Q: Naval transportation - Roman legions (Punic Wars) - andersao - 03-31-2009
Hi Everyone,
I've also been wondering about the number of troops on warships (navis longa), and especially the number of troops Livy is referring to in 34.8.
Here is an excerpt of the passage:
'Cato at once left the City and with twenty-five ships of war, five of which belonged to the allies, sailed to the port of Luna, where the army had also received orders to muster. He had published an edict through the whole length of the coast requiring ships of every description to be assembled at Luna, and there he left orders that they should follow him to the Port of the Pyrenees, it being his intention to advance against the enemy with his full naval strength...From Rhoda a favourable wind brought him to Emporiae. Here he disembarked the whole of his force with the exception of the crews of the vessels.'
Any suggestions as to how many troops this "whole force" of Cato's is?
Cheers.