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+--- Thread: How are scabbards attached to belts ? (1st and 2nd century) (/showthread.php?tid=1384)
How are scabbards attached to belts ? (1st and 2nd century) - Theodosius the Great - 09-06-2004
Avete,<br>
<br>
I have a question about how scabbards were attached to belts if they were not attached to baldrics. I'm interested in the 1st and 2nd century balteus.<br>
<br>
Is there supposed to be a set of frogs for both the gladius scabbard <em>and</em> the pugio ?<br>
<br>
Or is the gladius scabbard simply attached to the belt with leather straps laced thru the rings of the scabbard and behind over the belt ?<br>
<br>
Do we know for certain one way or the other ?<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
-Theo<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: How are scabbards attached to belts ? (1st and 2nd centu - Crispvs - 09-06-2004
Theo,<br>
<br>
I think the answer, for the time being, is exactly as you have suggested: we just don't know. The X arrangement of straps through the scabbard rings is an attractive theory but it does not fully account for the representational evidence. For example, Gnaeus Musius' scabbard seems to hang horizontally on his stele and a number of swords are depicted sloping slightly with the foot of the scabbard slightly behind the mouth. Off the top of my head I cannot think of any depictions of scabbards associated with what could be frogs.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Attaching scabbards to belts - Matthew Amt - 09-08-2004
Avete!<br>
<br>
Yeah, history's mysteries. There are a couple grave stones that clearly show frogs for the pugio but clearly NOT for the gladius. The X-pattern strap or thong has the advantage of being simple, and easy to modify if you change your mind or we find out something new. It also gives a purpose to the four rings. Are the angled scabbards possibly earlier, using the 2-ring system of the gladius hispaniensis?<br>
<br>
Word of warning: These are Romans we're talking about, so I wouldn't rule out a hinge somewhere...<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
Re: Attaching scabbards to belts - Anonymous - 09-08-2004
Please explain the X-pattern strap. <p></p><i></i>
Scabbard "X-strap" - Matthew Amt - 09-09-2004
Here's a photo:<br>
<br>
www.larp.com/legioxx/scloop.jpg<br>
<br>
It's explained on the Legio XX Gladius page,<br>
<br>
www.larp.com/legioxx/gladius.html<br>
<br>
As I said, it's pretty much guesswork. Some guys have just used 2 short vertical straps, one between each pair of rings. How well either method works may depend on your scabbard and your belt, etc.<br>
<br>
The gladius hispaniensis suspension with 2 rings is shown here:<br>
<br>
www.larp.com/legioxx/hispan1.jpg<br>
<br>
The attachment of the two straps to the belt is also kind of hypothetical, but the scabbard arrangement is solidly documented. The big difference is that the scabbard hangs at an angle, not vertical. This would be the typical suspension up into the mid-first century BC or thereabouts, and probably hung on even later than that alongside the 4-ring method(s).<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
Re: Scabbard "X-strap" - drsrob - 09-14-2004
What is the evidence for the two-ring attachment? I'can't recall ever to have seen a scabbard with rings on one side only, other than falcata's <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>
Two-ring scabbards - Matthew Amt - 09-14-2004
The Delos sword has only two rings, on the rear edge. Has two little buckles with it, too. Most other early hispaniensis finds are too fragmentary to tell, but there are a number of the Spanish predecessors that have been found, and they all use a 2-ring system.<br>
<br>
There is also the Ahenobarbus relief, which shows the sword hanging at an angle.<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
<br>
Matthew/Quintus <p></p><i></i>
Re: Two-ring scabbards - mcbishop - 09-14-2004
<em>What is the evidence for the two-ring attachment?</em><br>
<br>
The following is quite a good read (in English) for all who are interested in Roman-influenced short swords in general and suspension systems in particular:<br>
<br>
Nylén, E. 1963: 'Early gladius swords found in Scandinavia', <em>Acta Archaeologia (Copenhagen)</em> <strong>34</strong>, 185-230<br>
<br>
As far as I recall, he concluded that all four rings were not exploited... but then these are (admittedly Roman-type) swords belonging to non-Romans, not Romans themselves, so it doesn't necessarily follow that the suspension system was being used in the same way.<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
Re: Two-ring scabbards - drsrob - 09-14-2004
I'm not familiar with the Delos sword. Is there any article I can read, or can you give me an approximate date, Matt? <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>
Re: Two-ring scabbards - Crispvs - 09-15-2004
Try 'Roman Military Equipment', published in 1993 by a couple of fellows called Mike Bishop and Jon Coulston. It's out of print now but the new edition comes out this year we're told.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>
Re: Two-ring scabbards - mcbishop - 09-15-2004
<em>Try 'Roman Military Equipment', published in 1993 by a couple of fellows called Mike Bishop and Jon Coulston</em><br>
<br>
Actually that's a bit out-of-date in this respect. Better is<br>
<br>
P. Connolly 1997: 'Pilum, gladius and pugio in the Late Republic' in <em>JRMES</em> <strong>8</strong>, 41-57<br>
<br>
where the chronology of the various Republican swords (there was only one in 1993) is considered. General opinion is that the Delos sword (which has yet to be properly published, incidentally) dates to the Sullan destruction of the island.<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
holding it on - richsc - 09-15-2004
what happened to fascia anatini? <p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>
Re: Two-ring scabbards - drsrob - 09-16-2004
<br>
<br>
I have that book...and I have seen the drawing. Somehow the fact that it has only rings at one side never registered with me. <p>Greetings<br>
<br>
Rob Wolters</p><i></i>
Two-ring scabbards - hansvl - 09-18-2004
Hi,<br>
<br>
Are there any first century AD gladius-finds with these little buckles associated with them, like those with the Delos-sword? I suppose those little buckles shown in the picture were found together with the sword.<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/hansvl/Delos/delos.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Sorry, can't get the picture horizontally .<br>
Hans <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=hansvl@romanarmytalk>hansvl</A> at: 9/18/04 7:01 pm<br></i>