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+--- Thread: Live Eagles as Standards (/showthread.php?tid=1378)
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Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-20-2004
Following the debate re the Legio Parthica standard bearer from Apamea (illustration from the excellent Sumner book, top left) <img src="http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/[email protected]/detail" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
I found this in Weapons of the Romans by Feugere (page 50)- a tombstone of M Pompeius, a centurion from Leg XV Appollinaris. The drawing is "after A van Domaszewki, 1885, and appears to show between the standards, phalerae, and eagle a box containing a live bird resembling an eagle, with a carrying device.<br>
<img src="http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/[email protected]/detail" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
This seems to support the view that a live eagle may have been used- rather like today's regimental animal mascots?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Paulus<br>
<br>
PS Apologies if the images are not great- still mastering the technology.... <p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Uwe Bahr - 08-21-2004
Brittanicus,<br>
<br>
that sounds very interesting, but the photos don't work yet ...<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-21-2004
Ooops!<br>
Here is Pompeius from Feugere (hopefully).<img src="http://photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
And here is the Standard bearer from Apamea (top left, from Sumner)<br>
<img src="http://photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Your thoughts?<br>
<br>
Paulus <p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-21-2004
nope they still dont work<br>
but here is one<br>
<br>
<img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/Rat1.gif" style="border:0;"/> <p><img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">
</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vardulli>vardulli</A> at: 8/21/04 1:35 pm<br></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-21-2004
Thanks Vardulli....<br>
The technology with Photobucket and Yahoo images defeated me more convincingly than Arminius' Germans... <p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Praefectusclassis - 08-21-2004
As far as I know the Eagle in the Box idea comes from the tombstone of an aquilifer of Legio II Parthica (not yet in the imagebase), who has in his hand a standard with some sort of box on it with crossbars. No eagle visible though<br>
<br>
<p>Greets<br>
<br>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Uwe Bahr - 08-21-2004
Avete,<br>
<br>
thank You Vardulli for sharing this interesting photo with us and Brittanicus for starting this topic that is worth to be discussed.<br>
<br>
There seem to be two birds in the cage. It looks for me in such a way, as if they would be picking up something on the ground of the cage. Also the form of the birds reminds me in the first moment more of chickens or pigeons.<br>
<br>
Thus it reminds me somehow of the holy chickens and the episode, when before a sea-battle the holy chickens were observed, how they picked up groins. According to the priests the battle should be avoided. Thereupon the obviously impatient admiral kicked the cage with the chickens off board and gave orders to attack. The battle was lost, the day of the battle became a 'dies ater' (black day).<br>
<br>
But this is only my humble first impression when looking at the depiction. I myself am fascinated from the idea that the Romans used living eagles as mascot or field sign. It remembers me to an incident in much later time, the American Civil War, when the (Union's) 8th Wisconsin's famous eagle mascot flied defiantly above the National flag as the colour party charged into battle.<br>
<br>
Uwe <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 8/23/04 5:54 am<br></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-21-2004
For the II Parthica eagle, which is clearly visible behind the cross-bars, see:<br>
<br>
Balty, J.C., 1987: ‘Apamée (1986): Nouvelles données sur l’armée romaine d’orient et les raids sassanides du milieu du IIIe siècle’, Comptes Rendus, Académie des Inscriptions & Belles-Lettres, 213-242<br>
<br>
Balty, J.C. 1988: ‘Apamea in Syria in the Second and Third Centuries AD’, JRS 78, 91–104<br>
<br>
Balty, J.C. & Van Rengen, R., 1993: Apamea in Syria, the Winter quarters of Legio II Parthica. Roman Gravestones from the Military Cemetery (Brussels)<br>
<br>
Stoll, O., 1991: ‘Der Adler im »Käfig«. Zu einer Aquilifer-Grabstele aus Apamea in Syrien’, Archäologisches Korrespondenzblatt 21, 535-538 [also reprinted in his recent Mavors vol.]<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - mcbishop - 08-21-2004
<em>a box containing a live bird resembling an eagle, with a carrying device.<br>
</em><br>
<br>
That he is a <em>pullarius</em> gives the clue to the fact that these are sacred chickens (of the 'if they won't eat then let them drink - oops, I've lost the battle' type).<br>
<br>
Mike Bishop <p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-21-2004
i kind of thought they was chickens but cannot read that much of the text.<br>
<br>
still i assumed a couple of eagles in a box wouldnt work<br>
<br>
<p><img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.martin/forum/mark.gif
" width="100" height="100" align="right">
</p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - caiusbeerquitius - 08-22-2004
Paulus, send me the pics via E-mail, I'll post them here. <p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - Anonymous - 08-22-2004
Caius, Mike<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
"That he is a pullarius gives the clue to the fact that these are sacred chickens (of the 'if they won't eat then let them drink - oops, I've lost the battle' type)." Why do I feel that Regimental Keeper of the Sacred Chickens is unlikely to feature as a major rank in the next Hollywood Roman blockbuster?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Paulus<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Live Eagles as Standards - richsc - 08-23-2004
I think Matt Amt would gladly make me "keeper of the sacred chickens' in the XXth. <p>Legio XX <br>
Caupona Asellinae</p><i></i>
Da pics... - caiusbeerquitius - 08-23-2004
Here da pics :<br>
<img src="http://members.fortunecity.com/caiustarquitius/Apamea.jpg"/><br>
<img src="http://members.fortunecity.com/caiustarquitius/M_Pompeiius_2.jpg"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiustarquitius>caiustarquitius</A> at: 8/23/04 9:36 am<br></i>
Re: A question of size - Anonymous - 09-02-2004
That sculpture could indeed hardly be anything else than a bird (eagle?) in a cage, carried as some sort of standard.<br>
Another scultpture comes to mind --mine at least: the Louvre Praetorians. You'll notice on that relief that the eagle has folded wings and that is is offset on its perch as if it was pacing back and forth. I always though this was a live bird carried as a mascot.<br>
However: an eagle is a rather large animal. An imperial eagle for instance has a wingspan of about 2 meters. You'd need a pretty big cage for that and I have trouble picturing myself as an aquilifer carrying such a cumbersome standard into battle.<br>
So, my question is: do we have an ornithologist around here who could tell us is there is a breed of eagle small enough to be carried in a cage, as shown on the sculpture.. <p></p><i></i>