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+--- Thread: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? (/showthread.php?tid=13276)
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Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Hibernicus - 07-30-2008
Does anyone know the date for the grave setele of :
Gnaeus Musius
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - caiusbeerquitius - 07-30-2008
1st half of the 1st century CE
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Hibernicus - 07-30-2008
Thanks Christian, that's pretty much what I thought.
Does anyone have any idea or opinion as to why the scutum depicted is more like the FAYUN or "Republican" scutum?
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Peroni - 07-31-2008
Oval scuta are regularly depicted in the first century. There have also been tegimen finds such as the example from Caerleon which was for a parallel-sided oval shield. The tegimen from Roomberg (the one with the capricorns) also has a curved top edge and is wide enough for a curved faced shield.
The leather/hide shield facings found at Masada point generally to oval shields being used.
There are a few parallel-sided curved ovals seen in the imagebase on tombstones. Two shields of this type can also be seen being carried by auxiliary soldiers on Trajan's Column!
Actually we have two prototypes of exactly this type of shield that should be arriving on my doorstep today!! It is based upon the dimensions of the Caerleon shield cover.
![[Image: caerleoncover.png]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/caerleoncover.png)
Here's the blank...
![[Image: DSC08913.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/DSC08913.jpg)
![[Image: DSC08912.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/DSC08912.jpg)
Don't for a moment think that the rectangular shield was the only pattern! :wink:
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - caiusbeerquitius - 07-31-2008
Because a large number of legionary shields throughout the first century seems to have had that form. Also at Masada, e.g. the largest shield fragment found was also from such a shield. The rectangular shields were by far not as common for a while as is shown by reenactors. Even during the second century, it seems not to have been that common. I think this
"misconception" is due to the numbers of rectangular shields that can be seen on the column of Trajan - but all other evidence seems to hint in a different way. Cancelleria-relief, Arch of Orange, tombstones, material findings, for the later 2nd c. the Column of Marcus, etc.
Historically the Dacian wars seem to have been an exception: Here the rectangular shields also occur in large numbers on the tropaeum traiani in Adamklissi. Earlier and later a group might very well have either a mix of shields, or either type exclusively.
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Peroni - 07-31-2008
Laudes Christian! My thoughts exactly!
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - caiusbeerquitius - 07-31-2008
Hah!
We were writing at the same, time, it just took me longer...
Thx
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - caiusbeerquitius - 07-31-2008
Ah, I forgot:
The recent discussion on RMG also mentioned that the strip-constructed shields would visibly be not different from the modern pkywood shields. This is not right IMO. As can be seen from both the shield from Kasr-El-Harit as well as from the Masada findings the horizontal leaths were indeed visible through the shield facing. Wood is a natural material and during the shield is made may slightly "work", also the shields were not plained smoothly before the facing was attached. Some laths are slightly thicker or thinner than the average: voilá.
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - caiusbeerquitius - 07-31-2008
I wrote above:
Quote:Historically the Dacian wars seem to have been an exception: Here the rectangular shields also occur in large numbers on the tropaeum traiani in Adamklissi. Earlier and later a group might very well have either a mix of shields, or either type exclusively.We also should keep in mind that this may have been a feature only visible among the Legions taking part in the Dacian wars, it may very well be that other contemporary Legionary troops were using the oval shields.
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Peroni - 07-31-2008
Quote:We also should keep in mind that this may have been a feature only visible among the Legions taking part in the Dacian wars, it may very well be that other contemporary Legionary troops were using the oval shields.
Here's the two soldiers from the Column that appear equipped the same as all the other auxiliary soldiers apart from their shields... The first picture is what I shall be basing my next auxiliary shield on. (along with the boss based on the finds from Nijmegen and Aalen - round but made to fit a curved shield)
![[Image: DSCF3750.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/DSCF3750.jpg)
![[Image: DSCF3716.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/DSCF3716.jpg)
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Hibernicus - 07-31-2008
Flat Ovals.. I remember Bishop once lamenting that there weren't any 2nd C AD clubs with flat ovals.
.......
Is it or isn't it.. visible...
The recent discussion on RAG also mentioned that the strip-constructed shields would visibly be not different from the modern plywood shields... Christian
Wood shrinks when dry. I believe that the two fragments of the 3rd semi-rectangular Dura scutum are evidence for that.. the spacing between the laths is larger than I think a craftsman would want for a shield.
Also, only the Famous Dura scutum is covered with parchment over linen on both sides; the 2nd has parchment only on the back and the fragmentary 3rd has gesso and paint on the wood. Only the first would have a chance to shown no signs of lath construction.
There are unidentified fibers (maybe sinew?) between the linen and the lath on the Famous Dura scutum and these could have further hidden any small gappage between the lath strips as the glue dried.
One thing I have had to do is pay close attention to the grain in the lath to make sure that the facing lath does not cup upwards. Even VERY dry lath absorbs moisture from the glue which affects individual lath uniquely.
On the scutums I have made that have thin/parchment rawhide over linen the lath on the face of the scutum can often be discerned.... it's very subtle.. often requiring that you examine the scutum at an angle.If it has a cloth-only backing the glue absorbs into the linen differently along the minute spacings in the lath and that affects how the linen takes paint! Once again it can be subtle, but usually it's not.
Also, when one of our scutums takes on some moisture the structure can change.. subtly.. sometimes even with a heavy wax coating (even under the edging and the edges of the handgrip opening) moisture can find it's way in. One result is a lath strip buckling slightly, bubbling up.
I have also made filler to fill/repair the odd gaps... hide glue, rosin, saw dust and small shavings.. so, I suppose it's possible to disguise minute gaps in the lath
However, I'm remain unconvinced that you can't discern the difference between a modern plywood shield and a lath built scutum. All the time? ...of course not.
I do know one thing: it's practically impossible to see the difference between a shield made with aluminum or polycarbonate plastic or modern plywood.. covered and painted the same!
shields - Graham Sumner - 07-31-2008
Come on Adrian. surely you must know by now that the Roman artist who did these shields was on some wacky substance at the time and probably left at the end of the day saying "I think I got away with it, no one will ever spot these!" :wink: :wink:
Graham
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - caiusbeerquitius - 07-31-2008
So you agree with me that it is visible?
Right?
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Hibernicus - 07-31-2008
So you agree with me that it is visible? Right?
Yes. Not always very evident, but probably subtle and it depends upon the materials used for covering the front and back.
Re: Grave of Gnaeus Musius, Leg XIV? - Peroni - 08-01-2008
Graham wrote...
Quote:Come on Adrian. surely you must know by now that the Roman artist who did these shields was on some wacky substance at the time and probably left at the end of the day saying "I think I got away with it, no one will ever spot these!"
:lol:
I see where you're coming from Graham, but if you have a copy of the Carol van Driel-Murray article on the shield cover from Roomberg it backs up the sculpture somewhat as the shield cover is;
a. Large enough for a curved-face shield
b. Rounded at the top part
c. Clearly belonged to an auxiliary citizen cohort (Coh XV Voluntariorum)
The estimated size for the actual shield board (according to van Driel-Murray) would be in the region of 75cm wide - which would suggest that the board would have been curved to give a face of around 62cm.
Tenuous, but still likely.