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+--- Thread: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' (/showthread.php?tid=13042)
The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - Eleatic Guest - 07-02-2008
Hi,
Pictures of the reconstruction of Dionysios' repeating crossbow in the Museum für Antike Schiffahrt in Mainz, Germany. They put it on the deck of one replica, while a model, showing the loading mechanism, is displayed on the floor.
![[Image: 1715maschinengewehrcj9.th.jpg]](http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1715maschinengewehrcj9.jpg:3dlxc96k)
Description of firing mechanism
![[Image: 1720maschinengewehrrw8.th.jpg]](http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1720maschinengewehrrw8.jpg:3dlxc96k)
Spannvorrichtung of the Crossbow
![[Image: 1710maschinengewehriv9.th.jpg]](http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1710maschinengewehriv9.jpg:3dlxc96k)
Replica on ship deck, meant for 'sweeping the riverside' according to one guide
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - Eleatic Guest - 07-02-2008
I'd like to know from which source the following three drawings come, and whether they are true to the ancient evidence. In other words, can I post these pics with good conscience at Wikipedia?
![[Image: dionysiusrepeatingcrossig5.th.jpg]](http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dionysiusrepeatingcrossig5.jpg:2en4vjdf)
Scheme of Dionysios' repeating crossbow, from some place in the web
![[Image: dionysiusrepeatingcrossha4.th.jpg]](http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dionysiusrepeatingcrossha4.jpg:2en4vjdf)
Scheme of Dionysios' repeating crossbow, from some place in the web
![[Image: repeatingcrossbowiiisu4.th.jpg]](http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=repeatingcrossbowiiisu4.jpg:2en4vjdf)
Scheme of Dionysios' repeating crossbow, from some place in the web
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - D B Campbell - 07-02-2008
Quote:I'd like to know from which source the following three drawings come, and whether they are true to the ancient evidence.The first two pictures have been lifted from Eric Marsden's [amazon]Greek and Roman Artillery. Technical Treatises[/amazon], every artillery scholar's bible.
The third image (I believe) is from "Ancient catapults", Scientific American vol. 240 (1979), pp.150-160, by Soedel and Foley. I don't have the article to hand, but I'm pretty sure that's where the picture came from.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - Eleatic Guest - 07-02-2008
Alright. So all three are still well in the copyright lands. Too bad. :wink:
What do you think of the reconstruction in the Mainz Museum?
Anyway, on what ancient evidence are all these reconstructions, replica and schemes alike, based?
I also noted that this 'machine-gun' may well be the first instance of a chain drive, albeit with uncontinous motion.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - D B Campbell - 07-02-2008
Quote:Anyway, on what ancient evidence are all these reconstructions, replica and schemes alike, based?Philon (sometimes called "Philo Mechanicus") describes the machine in his Belopoiika. Marsden translated the text with commentary and diagrams.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-03-2008
We had a reproduction at Corbridge last year. I cannot remember the guy who made it, but it was pretty amazing. Would be great to see it firing at full strength...
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - D B Campbell - 07-03-2008
Quote:We had a reproduction at Corbridge last year. I cannot remember the guy who made it, but it was pretty amazing.Maybe Alan Wilkins/Len Morgan? I think they knocked one up for "What the Ancients Did For Us" TV show.
Repeating crossbow - sitalkes - 07-05-2008
The picture of the mechanism etc is from page 137 of "Atlas of the Greek World" by Peter Levi (or perhaps this is an additional, highly detailed drawing). The Chinese were using repeating crossbows until the end of the nineteenth century - they were not very accurate, though.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-05-2008
I think it was Alan Wilkins. Len was there too though, so it possibly was the one they collaborated on. I would love to build these things myself, and the fact that I have actually met these guys is something I never imagined a few short years ago!
But I was thinking he had just perfected the cam mechanism on it for last year, but possibly picked up the wrong end of the stick!
Re: Repeating crossbow - D B Campbell - 07-05-2008
Quote:The picture of the mechanism etc is from page 137 of "Atlas of the Greek World" by Peter Levi .Check Levi's illustration credits. You'll see that he lifted this one from the Scientific American article I cited above.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - Eleatic Guest - 07-06-2008
Is this the only evidence of chain drives in antiquity? If thez were out of iron, chance is that there must be some archaeological remains, mustnt it?
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - D B Campbell - 07-06-2008
Quote:I think it was Alan Wilkins. Len was there too though, so it possibly was the one they collaborated on.I may be wrong, but I think Alan's the theory and Len's the practice. You need a Latin/Greek scholar to decipher the instructions and a craftsman to carry them out.
Quote:If they were out of iron, chance is that there must be some archaeological remains, mustnt it?If they were copper alloy (bronze), you could reasonably expect remains, but if they were iron, they could simply have corroded into dust. Of course, either version could've been melted down and re-used.
I think Alan & Len's wooden version works very well, though.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - jkaler48 - 11-04-2010
Mythbusters build their version which ended up working well after they tuned it up a bit.
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/mythbusters/
Unfortunately they did not consult a knowledgeable reenactor resulting in BRACERS with their (Plastic armor?)Roman outfit
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - PMBardunias - 11-05-2010
Here are some illustrations from Russo et al., AutomaticWeapons of the Roman Empire (M. Ceccarelli (ed.), Proceedings of EUCOMES 08). The second is of a pneumatic weapon supposedly described by Philon of Byzantium. If anyone can link me to a source for his description online, I'd appreciate it.
Re: The Repeating Crossbow, An Ancient \'Machine Gun\' - P. Clodius Secundus - 11-06-2010
Quote:Here are some illustrations from Russo et al., AutomaticWeapons of the Roman Empire (M. Ceccarelli (ed.), Proceedings of EUCOMES 08).Automatic Weapons of the Roman Empire ??? :? Shouldn't there be a question mark after it? Is there any evidence that any sort that suggests automatic weapon were used by the Romans? Philon was Greek and AFAIK that's tha last we hear of automatic, or at least magazine-fed weapons until the Chinese crossbow. In the gunpowder era the first I know of is Puckle's gun in the 18thc. The gatling, militraiuse, and other "machine guns" came in the 19th C. Technically speaking, none of these are "automatic" weapons in the strictest sense since they require a manual input of energy such as cranking or cycling the bolt to repeat firing.