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+--- Thread: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? (/showthread.php?tid=12868)
Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Theodosius the Great - 06-10-2008
Avete,
In "The Twelve Caesars" Suetonius records a rather bizarre episode which happened during the reign of Claudius. When celebrating the Saecular Games in the Circus Maximus, at one point Claudius staged a panther hunt with Praetorian cavalrymen, led by their Tribunes and the Prefect himself. (Claudius 21)
Could this mean that the Praetorians too had their version of cavaly sports such as the Hippika Gymnasia ? Up until now I thought that only the legionary cavalry had such games.
Otherwise, it seems rather unthinkable for Praetorians and their commanders to be involved in games due to their high social status.
Any thoughts ?
~Theo
Re: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-10-2008
They were the Emperors guards, so would do as required. Also, they would probably enjoy the opportunity to show their military abilities to the citizens of Rome....help to instill a little bit of fear.
And if they held Claudius in high enough regard, they probably felt honoured to put on such performances.
Re: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Alexandr K - 06-10-2008
Hi,
I think that praetorians certainly had something like hippika gymnasia. After all this was a way how to train and display cavalry skills and I don't see a reason why praetorians shouldn't do such thinks. They too had to train their skills and they too had celebrations and displays where to show them.
Regarding the high social status of the praetorians... 1) They simply did what the emperor ordered. I don't see anything unusual in this. During Caligulas reign the praetorians allegedly had to build stables for horses of Caligulas favourite green faction (Joseph. A.J. XIX. 257). Also a little bit under their social status, one would say, and Josephus certainly writes about it exactly in this sense. 2) I'm not sure if I would regard a hunt as unthinkable for praetorians. Well acting in arena for the entertainment of the masses isn't probably all right (although we mustn't forget that even some aristocrats were keen to become gladiators). But a hunt is certainly more than OK and given the circumstance they could perhaps also regard it as a honourable occasion to demonstrate their skills and abilities.
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Theodosius the Great - 06-11-2008
Quote:they would probably enjoy the opportunity to show their military abilities to the citizens of Rome....help to instill a little bit of fear.That makes it more interesting, if true. From what I was able to read about the Praetorians (and there's so little to read in English
) the Emperors at this time wanted to de-emphasize the military role of the Guard (i.e. having them dress in togas and concealed weapons, etc..). This showmanship of Claudius seems like a blatant diversion from the old practice. It's probably the closest occurence when the Guard was used in a Soviet-style Red Square military display of the ruler's power and might.Presumably the Guards, or at least the Tribunes and Prefect, are wearing their armor during this so-called hunt.
Quote:I think that praetorians certainly had something like hippika gymnasia. After all this was a way how to train and display cavalry skills and I don't see a reason why praetorians shouldn't do such thinks. They too had to train their skills and they too had celebrations and displays where to show them.It makes sense that they had such events to hone their equestrian (riding) skills. Celebrations also make sense. But to show off to amuse the Roman mob just seemed astonishing to me. I thought only slaves did such things. Yes, I remember aristocrats would sometimes want to participate but that still did not make it socially acceptable (I know you are not saying that).
Quote:Regarding the high social status of the praetorians... 1) They simply did what the emperor ordered. I don't see anything unusual in this. During Caligulas reign the praetorians allegedly had to build stables for horses of Caligulas favourite green faction (Joseph. A.J. XIX. 257).Good point. Slaves were used in a lot of building projects as well. The Legions too are credited with building aqueducts and Hadrian's Wall since the labor or skilled labor could not be found to do the job. But Rome had many resident slaves and technical experts so using the Guard to build stables also seems puzzling to me :?
I'll see if I have Josephus or if I can find the passage online, thanks for the reference
Quote:2) I'm not sure if I would regard a hunt as unthinkable for praetorians. Well acting in arena for the entertainment of the masses isn't probably all right (although we mustn't forget that even some aristocrats were keen to become gladiators). But a hunt is certainly more than OK and given the circumstance they could perhaps also regard it as a honourable occasion to demonstrate their skills and abilities.Again, good point. I find it interesting that high ranking members of the Guard could hunt at all. Was hunting a hobby that aristocrats practiced at this point in time ? I know there are depictions of the Emperor hunting but this is much, much later.
~Theo
Re: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2008
Gaius Julius Caesar wrote:
they would probably enjoy the opportunity to show their military abilities to the citizens of Rome....help to instill a little bit of fear.
Quote:That makes it more interesting, if true. From what I was able to read about the Praetorians (and there's so little to read in English ) the Emperors at this time wanted to de-emphasize the military role of the Guard (i.e. having them dress in togas and concealed weapons, etc..). This showmanship of Claudius seems like a blatant diversion from the old practice. It's probably the closest occurence when the Guard was used in a Soviet-style Red Square military display of the ruler's power and might.
Presumably the Guards, or at least the Tribunes and Prefect, are wearing their armor during this so-called hunt.
As I said, they were the guard of the emperor, and would do his bidding more or less.
I would imagine the wearing of the togas was only limited to in the senate?
I can't recall if they were required to wear them in the city as a whole?
And also the restictions possibly varied from emperor to emperor?
I cannot imagine an emperor wanting his elite guards putting on a display of military prowess in togas alone?
Re: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Alexandr K - 06-12-2008
Hi,
Quote:I'll see if I have Josephus or if I can find the passage online, thanks for the referenceHere it is.
Quote:I find it interesting that high ranking members of the Guard could hunt at all. Was hunting a hobby that aristocrats practiced at this point in time ? I know there are depictions of the Emperor hunting but this is much, much later.Well, I thinks so, but couldn't find any good reference. Only that the emperor Lucius Verus liked hunting (HA Luc. Ver. II. 10). I'll try to look at it.
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Praetorian version of the \'Hippika Gymnasia\' ? - Theodosius the Great - 06-12-2008
Quote:Here it is.
Thanks, Alexandr
Laudes.
Quote:Well, I thinks so, but couldn't find any good reference. Only that the emperor Lucius Verus liked hunting (HA Luc. Ver. II. 10). I'll try to look at it.Hunting for the upper classes could be a Hellenistic tradition that the Roman higher-ups later adopted.
~Theo