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+--- Thread: manica (/showthread.php?tid=12816)
manica - Karus - 06-03-2008
Salve all. Have just bought my brand spanking new manica from armamentaria and am about to fit the strappinig/lining etc. Having read the previous strands on this subject I know that the concensus seems to that this item was worn at the front of the arm but on reflection I have a couple of points which I think might be relevant. It seems to me that the manica should be worn on the side of the arm (when the arm is at rest) for two reasons. Firstly this piece of kit is designed to protect the arm when the gladius is thrust forward beyond the cover of the shield. A proper thrust will always come from the shoulder just like a proper punch and with a gladius in the hand the shoulder will rotate bringing the side of the arm round to the top. If the manica starts on the top of the arm (when at rest) it will rotate to the inside and be useless. If however it starts on the side of the arm it will rotate to the top and protect the arm as it`s meant to. Secondly if the arm is on the outside of the arm it can be used to parry aside a thrust that gets inside your guard and open up your opponent to a cut to the throat in one easy move...just a thought!
Karus
Re: manica - Tarbicus - 06-03-2008
But if you thrust with your gladius, the thumb is the upper alignment; your elbow is facing to the right surely? It's not the same as a proper fist punch at all (that's the scutum) because the wrist has to bend downwards for a sword thrust, whereas a proper punch keeps the wrist pretty much horizontal. Very different IMHO.
Re: manica - Peroni - 06-03-2008
The modern Horseguards are still taught to this day to twist the arm for a thrust. Not only does it strengthen the arm by the twisting of the forearm bones, but lock the elbow in place.
Martial arts punches are much the same. I see what John is getting at.
The thumb will be facing left with the knuckles on top. Elbow joint facing right.
Re: manica - Magnus - 06-04-2008
Locking the elbow at the end of an impact is a very bad thing to do...you'll cause major damage to the joint! Boxers are taught to impact prior to a full arm extension for example.
Adding a twist to the gladius only rotates the bottom half of the arm...when my manica is on and attached to the entire length, I can do a lot of rotational movements but the manica stays in one place.
I wear mine on the "front/top" of the arm when at my side, so the opening is to the back.
Re: manica - Tarbicus - 06-04-2008
Quote:The modern Horseguards are still taught to this day to twist the arm for a thrust.Is that for a thrust with sword or lance?
Horseguards - Celer - 06-04-2008
Tarbi,
It would probably be a thrust as the last pattern cavalry sabre in the British army was the 1908, which was purely a thrusting sword, more of a one-handed lance than a cutting weapon.
Vale,
Celer.
Re: manica - Karus - 06-04-2008
Hi all...very interesting replies. The reason I feel that you wouod thrust from the shoulder is that if you try it from the elbow the bones in your arm are not in a straight line and then there really is a risk of fracturing bones both at the elbow and the wrist if it`s a proper full force thrust into a dense object like a human body or similar piece of meat, the pressure on those joints could cause real damage unless they are in line. Just a suggestion but try it with a bent wrist, full on into a piece of wood or something and you`ll see what I mean
I take the point that boxers are taught not to `lock` the elbow and I certainly agree with that but a proper punch comes from the shoulder and the arm does rotate so that on impact the bones all line up, As I said this is just speculation but it`s worth considering how these weapons were actually used because that will inform the practicalities of the other items of kit like the manicaregards
Karus
Re: manica - Aetius Helvius Merula - 06-05-2008
I've been trying the twisting thrust with my gladius lately. I was taught by a Golden Gloves boxer, who saw me using a punching bag in the gym once, to twist my fist instead of cocking back my arm for a punch. It was faster, didn't telegraph my moves, and delivered more force. I thought I'd see if that applied to a gladius too, and thus far it seems to.
I start with my hand parallel to my body. Instead of twisting my hand to the right as with the bare handed blow, I twist to the left. That leaves my arm still bent a little and not locked up, the knuckles and back of my forearm facing upwards, outside of elbow and bicep facing that way too. So if it were clad in a manica, I can see the case for having it strapped on the side of the arm.
Re: manica - Karus - 06-05-2008
that`s how I see it and now if you`ve missed with your thrust the manica is perfectly placed to parry aside your opponents counter leaving him wide open to a cut across the throat in one easy move. Next time we go out I`ll be breaking out the practice kit to see how it all fits together
K
Re: manica - Magnus - 06-05-2008
Meh, like I said...I actually wear one on top of the arm and it isn't exposed when i thrust.
But don't listen to me.... :lol:
Re: manica - Tarbicus - 06-05-2008
Unless you leap from the line, stab, and leap back into the line, as according to (AFAIK) the only primary source description of actual combat training, you're doing it wrong anyway :wink:
Re: manica - Karus - 06-05-2008
Sorry Tarbicus...don`t know why you would think I was jumping out of the line. I`m just saying that for a thrust to have any power it comes from the shoulder and if so then the arm naturally rotates so that the manica would end up inside the arm if it`s start position was to the front. Just jabbing at the enemy is`nt going to get the job done you`ve got to stick it in with real force and then yank it back ..that takes some real power and that means that the arm will rotate QED.
Re: manica - Marcus Julius - 06-06-2008
Now this may just be confusion of terminology, but from all that I have learned, the force of a blow comes from the trunk of the body, not the shoulder. It starts in the hip, torquing the muscle in the torso, which then throw the shoulder forward. The shoulder and arm muscles are then just used to direct that force into the proper location on the target (high, low, strong side, cross body, etc.).
Now that isn't really relative to this thread. However, what is relative, is recognizing the fact that there are two edges to our swords. I'd have to say that this was obviously done for a reason, and striking with the leading edge puts the hand and forearm into an entirely different position than a back-edge cut (think reaching back deep behind the enemy and hacking with the backblade on a hamstring or such). Just a thought.
Re: manica - Karus - 06-06-2008
Fair enough ... so what`s the best position for the manica than?
Karus
Re: manica - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-06-2008
On your arm...... :roll:
