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+--- Thread: Marathon 2011 (/showthread.php?tid=12782)
Re: Marathon 2011 - Ceasar Augustus - 06-09-2008
Hey guys I'm back but I missed like 3 pages and it will take forever to catch up
... Anyhow, what have I missed?
Re: Marathon 2011 - ouragos - 06-10-2008
On the question of authenticity, the first step is to define the timeline. On this issue, call me a little unimaginative if you like but as the point seems to be to focus upon a specific time in history, would it not seem a little strange to then stretch the time forward another 150 years? That's like holding a commemorative at Bull Run and having people turning up dressed as serving marines in the Gulf today - together with Rough Riders, WW1, WW2, Korea... etc
Granted changes were more subtle in the C5th/4th b.c. but is stretching the timeline not missing the point and taking away one of the key drivers to get people there in the first place?
Possibly easy for me to say as I come from a country where there is lots of scope for different periods to represent, but there is over 2 years for people to focus on this if they want to be there and get appropriate kit.
On the issue of kit, authenticity is a biggie and how it is defined (if it is) and policed (as it will need to be if defined) become paramount. Thus clear guidelines will need to be set.
For example - steel helmets are wrong, very wrong. Unless painted of course. Brass is generally, widely acceptable but copper isn't right. Also, stlyle... anyone looked at the volume of 'trojan' corinthians and '300' corinthians out there. Then there is period of use, which dictates pattern.
Chiton's, well how many T-shirt sleeved ones are out there - and that is blatantly wrong. How many made from cotton - wrong, etc.
Swords - well let's not go there other than to point at a wide array of commercial 'greek' swords which are really designed to be pretty, not right (by any real stratch of the imagination - other than, perhaps, in holywood).
Armour - another biggie. Leather? I think there is a massive discussion on this already. Footwear, would you accept modern sandals? If so, which ones?
Amazingly though, aspides should not be a problem - there should be a reasonable commercial model available soon for around €150 (guessing at the price but it shouldn't be far out). However, to what degree would the shield design be important?... and having spent a considerable time painting yours, would you be prepared to overpaint it... particularly if you have a lamda on the front???
This list goes on and on and is a minefield BUT if I was inspired by the opportunity, determined to be there and having time to prepare I would want to get something right - not turn up and feel wrong.
Right, by the way, does not have to mean more expensive. It simply requires some thought.
Anyway, my twopenne'th.
Re: Marathon 2011 - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-10-2008
Hi Andy. If you get too strict about time periods,then what about authenticity in the actual period? We tend to forget that many items the majority of re-enactors use and are accepted are inaccuarate whatever time meriod. So for example what is so accurate in the deepeeka corinthian in order not to accept Perdikkas' helmet
http://www.hetairoi.de/zenphoto/2008/Vo ... 07.jpg.php
which may not be in the strict time period,however it is one of the most accurate greek re-productions out there,plus it is the latest evolution of a helmet that was starting to be in use in 490bc,the thracian helmet. Equip this man with an earlier chiton and an aspis,and I think it is madness to leave such impressions out because of authenticity. Sorry I bring Perdikkas as an example,but it was his helmet we discussed above.
Shields may be more difficult to change...Shapes or even painting. Remember it is just going to be another event,you can't really oblige someone change his shield pattern if it is accurate but 62 years later! You can set of course limits,and in fact I agree that we HAVE to,but I'm of the opinion that general authenticity must be more important than time period.
After all,not every single re-enctor will have the chance to know the smaller details on what WE think acceptable and what not.
I agree though,sleeved chitons should be banned! And for some strange reason the majority of hoploites out there have the sleeved even though representing early classical or archaic greeks. After all,the chiton is something that anyone can make at any time,nothing like buying a new helmet.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Marathon 2011 - Kineas - 06-10-2008
Andy, I think that's exactly the discussion that should be had.
I do a period that's so strict that we differentiate between campaigns (American Revolution) and sometimes specify which campaign impressions are allowed for an event. So I appreciate your point. And the folks from the US and Canada who will come with us are all building kit (as we speak) for Marathon in particular. In fact, I think we just voted to come as Plataeans.
My concern is, however, that there are not 17,000 hoplite impressions from which to choose, and 20 events this year so that the Boeotian Hoplite impressions can go off and do Leukra while us Plateaens go to Marathon.... And, as a relative newcomer, (and a sometime classicist) I have to say that there's a fair element of disagreement on major points (not steel helmets, though!) so I agree. Someone should set standards.
Not me, though! That would require a consensual decision among the leadership.
I do continue to advocate a kit manual, and I'm trying to motivate my publisher into volunteering to print one. Again, I recognize the danger of the process, but it'd help, I think. And I'd suggest that there are recognized experts in the field who could be engaged to help as well.
So--who's on the standards committee?
Re: Marathon 2011 - Caius Fabius - 06-10-2008
I was planning to come as a Persian, I have my ninja outfit but I can't find a rhinoceros to rent... (JUST KIDDING) :lol:
Re: Marathon 2011 - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-10-2008
I could finally make the leap for my corinthian....hmmmmmm
will look funny with nothing else on tho'
hock:
Marathon 2011 - Paullus Scipio - 06-10-2008
Perdikkas/Thorsten wrote:
Quote:Then we could bring along two or three Thracians, but because my expertise lies in the Hellenistic period i have no idea if and how they'd fit in ........Well, Marathon is a bit early for Thracian Peltasts.......but with some adaptations, the impression could become Persian/Persian Ally.....and Thracian slaves as hypaspistae/psiloi is another possibility (though in that case, native dress might be a little unlikely...but since you only need a chiton....sandals and cloak optional ! )
Although I'd certainly love to be part of the phalanx, if you already can see that there's a dire need for Persians I'd also consider making a Persian kit.
...and if you bring a Persian kit for some displays/events, there's no reason you couldn't wear Hoplite Panoply on others (e.g. Drill displays or experiments - it would be nice if 64 people turned up, to re-enact Xenophon's drill one-to-one!)...it is not an either/or matter...no reason not to be both, and like Actors, play several roles!!
Re: Marathon 2011 - ouragos - 06-11-2008
Just to be clear - the point I am making is that this is an issue that needs clarifying, particularly, as it seems, people are already starting to plan and look for kit. The minute you introduce ANY restriction you get into policing it and so this is something that, if this is to go ahead, needs addressing and clarifying soon.
I am not suggesting any specific guidelines at this point or dismissing options, simpy highlighting the complexity.
However - what is the objective? To have a commemorative event or simply an excuse for a gathering. What will be the main focus? Carnival or reenactment. If the former, technically, anything would go. If the latter you instantly draw in limitations. No sarissas for one!!
Many people would have to make an enormous effort to get there. The preparation is a big part of reenactment life. Researching bits of kit, getting them right and then getting the chance to show off what you have done. Most (all?) reenactors scrimp and save to buy bits of kit and want to spend wisely. Most (all again?) do not want to be in a position when they turn out in that piece they thought was wonderful to find that it is totally wrong. And I have seen people quietly remove things in the hope that others won't notice.
There is a shift in equipment/clothing design as you hit the peloponesian wars and pilos helmets, for example, which came in then would not have been seen at Marathon. This is also the period when 'sleeved' chitons appear to have come in, but the sleeving was simply a repositioning of a hole and in the general impression this is relatively unnoticable other than to the purist. Helmets are distintive though. So helmet evolution, therefore, could be used as a deliniator of timeframe?
A suggestion, not a proposition but the sort of thing that needs to be considered. It is not difficult, again as someone has just mentioned, to adjust some later representations with minor cost implications.
Shield designs could be explained away to the crowd. If there is a real desire to be fully accurate (which poses its own challenges for designs!) the easy answer is shield covers. But again, I am not trying to get into the minutia, just the principle.
If you are to seek 'official' sanction and support you need to be able to offer something of gravitas. The golden age of Greek history, reproduced not on the silver screen but in bodies on the field on the very anniversary of a famous moment in time - this is a heritage issue. A tourism potential and, ultimately as has already been mentioned, a source of job creation and revenue for the local population. On this basis, possibly it is something that could attract EU grants if done through the right channels.
To get this moving though you really need someone on the ground and/or the involvement of an experienced organiser.
Re: Marathon 2011 - Perdiccas - 06-11-2008
Quote:No sarissas for one!!Don't worry, I wasn't planning on bringing our Phalangite kits to Greece.
Quote:...and if you bring a Persian kit for some displays/events, there's no reason you couldn't wear Hoplite Panoply on others (e.g. Drill displays or experiments - it would be nice if 64 people turned up, to re-enact Xenophon's drill one-to-one!)...it is not an either/or matter...no reason not to be both, and like Actors, play several roles!!Yes that's true, but my problem is that I have neither at the moment and I don't know if I'm able to make two new kits, even with three years time and the possibility to use some pieces of my Hellenistic kit for the Hoplite. So I want to focus on one of them as early as possible and then see if enough time and money is left to get another decent impression.
I also would vote to leave a bit of tolerance regarding the time of the impression, but more like 550 BC up to the Peloponnesian War or up to 400. 320 BC would be way to late in my opinion.
I wouldn't have a problem leaving my helmet and other items that don't fit that time at home and get a replacement. But we really need to set some guidelines - and prefereably ASAP - for such issues if we want people to start thinking about coming to the event. I myself don't know enough about the Classical era to be on a standard comitte, but maybe some other members of our group would want to work on such guidelines. I'll definitely let you know after our meeting.
Re: Marathon 2011 - Gaius Julius Caesar - 06-11-2008
An Athenean from Marathon to a Spartan at Thermopolae, and those associated with it would be a good selection?
Re: Marathon 2011 - Kineas - 06-11-2008
Can someone more savvy than me put up a poll about standards?
Re: Marathon 2011 - ouragos - 06-11-2008
Taking 550-340 as a starting point, there would be little in difference between the representation of a hoplite over that period and none would look out of place in a battle set in 490. The minutia of change in the post 490 period being small aspects of detail.
There are, within that, a wide range of impressions. Remember, no issue kit, all made 'locally' or handed down. Lots of colours to choose from and variations in all aspects. There are around a dozen or so shoe designs as well.
I would speculate that there are a lot of 'spartans' or latent 'spartans' out there and by taking a 'persian wars' perspective that allows people to follow their dream yet remain within the spirit of what is being done. Although personally I hate the lamda as a shield design.
Ducks to avoid incomming.... :lol:
Remember Spartans, there are a lot of alternate devices out there and there is still a debate over when it first appeared.. indeed, had the spartans learned to spell as early as 490??
Really ducks now.... :lol: :lol:
The real challenge for recreaton is the construct detail. Nothing was written down and finds tell us only a part. Reconstruction is, in many cases, informed leaps of faith and the chances of getting things 'right' are always questionnable.... and expensive... and someone always finds a flaw after many nights hard work and much money spent.
But that is how we keep moving forward.
Someone just emailed the 4hoplites site to ask about making a chiton - now as mentioned above, it is very simple and you can see patterns easily on the web. But translating a drawing to an effective piece of clothing is not actually that straight-forward. That is why so many people end up in a tight, roman tunic affair with T-shirt sleeves. We learned from making several. We also learned from experience that modern, machine printed braid always looks cheap and always looks wrong. We 'speculated' on which way the seams would be folded, we played around with getting it to fit right at the neck...etc.
A simple bit of clothing, but we often forget that as technologies change, what was simple to one culture can be fairly complex to another.
But, this is a cheap piece of kit and you could make a nice, linen one for the price of a couple of metres of linen and some thread. Other aspects can be expensive.
So, the point of this ramble, setting guidelines becomes the obvious next step after setting the timeframe and establishing basic representation guidelines (the authenticity issue). A starting point might be to draw on my site, although there is not actually a lot of specific construct data as I held all my patterns back for the HA. We, too, are starting to discuss the possibility of supporting an event if it is to happen and if decisions are made then there is a possibility some updates could be made to the site to be more specific on construct detail.
Marathon 2011 - Paullus Scipio - 06-11-2008
I suspect that everyone has drawn breath and hesitates.......so for a foundation how about this ? (ducks and awaits incoming! :lol: )
Aiming at a period roughly 550-450 BC
Hoplite impression
Helmet: Late Corinthian, with or without earholes; Early Corinthian (? Grandad's heirloom?); Attic, with or without nasal, with or without hinged cheekpieces;Chalcidian with or without hinged cheekpieces; Late Illyrian (? rare in Southern Greece) Early Boeotian ( Demosthenes LIX 94 says these were portrayed as worn by the Plataeans in Micon's famous painting of Marathon n.b. not the late Boeotian as worn by Macedonian cavalry): all, with or without crests ( majority should be without)
Aspis rimmed, circular, earlier shallow (10 cm), even curve with 5 cm wide rim (? Granda's heirloom again?); or later deep-bowled (c.15 cm deep) with increasing curve and steep "shoulders" (Vatican shield type - a description of which was posted and discussed in detail elsewhere) 80-95 cm diameter. Designs individual ( see Luke Ueda-Sarson's site for known designs and periods) NO LAMBDAS ( not used til c.425 BC when Sparta began to equip Helots ??)
Spears 7-8 ft(210-240 cm)long, leaf shaped head of iron, must have sauroter of bronze/brass ( does anyone know of a depiction of a Dory , as opposed to javelins etc, without one ?)
Swords straight, 'campovolano' type, 80 cm long aprox; curved machaira ( not spanish type); Spartan 'short' sword all iron-bladed
Body Armour Bronze muscle cuirass('muskelpanzer'); Leather or linen Tube-and-yoke corselet ; Old-fashioned rimmed bronze cuirass/Bell shaped cuirass? ( Grandad's heirloom again !
)Amendment: Body armour, like greaves, should be optional.Greaves Optional, but if worn should be bronze/brass spring-on variety, not strapped and should be 'muscled' ( not smooth)
Chiton should be Doric or Ionic, the former generally of wool, the latter of thin linen ( no sleeves or cotton), girdled with simple cord? ( I can't recall seeing any belts depicted, although buckles for 'muskelpanzers' probably existed...anybody know differently?)
Cloak long Himation or shorter Chlamys, should be wool ( for warmth), not worn in battle.
Sandals optional with bare feet, various patterns in leather worn ( but too early for Thracian boots)
That's just to get discussion started - off the top of my head - so much will need to be debated/discussed and expanded.
Women, slaves/servants/hypaspistae/psiloi and camp equipment will have to wait another day ! :o o ..........the floor is now open !!
Re: Marathon 2011 - Kineas - 06-11-2008
great post, Paul. I'm sure we can debate every line, but I think that's where to start.
Re: Marathon 2011 - Ceasar Augustus - 06-11-2008
If you tell me what to get I can probably get it by 2011.