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+--- Thread: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? (/showthread.php?tid=12722)
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Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Folkert van Wijk - 05-23-2008
If I do look in my book "krieg und frieden" from the museum in Bonn, I do find a lot of German Auxilia grave finds showing more or less pointed and in my opinion iron bosses. So I start wondering is the idea of Auxilia with brass bosses another standardized way of showing the audience that auxilia must have bin poorer equipped then the standard legionary??
Or is there any substantial archological back up for this idea??
As you can see I am trying hard to get a idea about Auxilia by reconsidering just about everything that's the reenactment standard :lol:
[size=75:3iukp177]Next topic to come Pugio's and Gladii... :lol: :lol: [/size]
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - jvrjenivs - 05-23-2008
I would sertainly fight the idea that the Auxilia is poorer equiped than a legionairy. In my opinion about pugio's I would say that a auxilia would take more care of an ornate one than a legionairy, so I guess the same could go for shield bosses.
I wouldn't know any reason why you should restrict to brass bosses for auxilia.
Even if we look at the 'batavian' cavalry helmets from Nijmegen, they are pretty special. Even better than some 'roman' counterparts found in Germany. Their face masks were of a double layer (in iron and silver sheet), the bowl fully decorated with horse hair glued in patterns. Even they I would consider it as pretty ornate.
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - M. Demetrius - 05-23-2008
Some auxilia brought some of their own weapons and equipment to their service in the legion, and it seems likely to me that they also brought their handcrafts. As you say, many Germanic tribes made the pointed bosses (discussed somewhere on RAT, with pictures, search for "Germanic bosses") It would not seem unreasonable for them to either move their old shield boss to a new shield, or have their own smiths make them like they always had.
The Germanics before Roman influence may well have had access to bronze, but probably not to brass. They made iron tools, though, so that seems a likely choice for edging, bosses, etc. No doubt there are many experts here who could lend more specific info to that.
There are probably many things we'll fight over that are purely reenactor convention, rather than absolute historical fact, supported by provenance. I won't list any here, because I'm sure it could start another of the endless battles we seem to enjoy. :lol: :roll:
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-23-2008
I'm a Legionary, and have a Brass/bronze boss on my scutum! No one has threatened me yet for it!
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - M. Demetrius - 05-23-2008
:x Grrr! Hey, you! Gimme that shield boss or I'll ---
There, feel better now?
:lol: :wink:
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Matt Lukes - 05-26-2008
It probably is a mistake to believe that copper alloy was 'poorer' than iron, particularly since copper alloy was, as it is today, rather more valuable- it was money afterall. It's always seemed to me to be a bit of a bias thinking that iron is stronger and better protection and thus must have been considered superior- however that's clearly not the case; copper alloys are far nicer-looking esthetically and that's a feature not lost on the Romans- just look at the Lorica plumata and the super-fine L. squamatae from Dura Europos- not superior protection but extremely cool looking :wink:
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Ceasar Augustus - 05-26-2008
And, as everyone knows, coolness is always a bonus.
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Folkert van Wijk - 05-26-2008
Still there must be a reason why mankind moved from the bronze age into the Iron age. I always understood that iron/steel was tougher then bronze and also more difficult to work with. So iron was the "new" invention especially for the Celts who where the first Europeans that brought iron working to a higher lever. Therefore it looks to me that iron in those day's was more sophisticated then bronze, therefore more functional, yet more expensive and so in those days cooler to have then bronze. Yes I do like the shine of bronze more then the cold look of iron, but hey where from 2008 and not from around 0...
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Marcus Mummius - 05-26-2008
Quote:Still there must be a reason why mankind moved from the bronze age into the Iron age. I always understood that iron/steel was tougher then bronze and also more difficult to work with. So iron was the "new" invention especially for the Celts who where the first Europeans that brought iron working to a higher lever. Therefore it looks to me that iron in those day's was more sophisticated then bronze, therefore more functional, yet more expensive and so in those days cooler to have then bronze. Yes I do like the shine of bronze more then the cold look of iron, but hey where from 2008 and not from around 0...
The bronze-iron discussion is very complex and a vast amount of different theories excist. I once had to write a few papers on this subject matter and read a lot about it.
Some things I learned:
In the early iron age iron was weaker than bronze. For a part this was caused by the fact that iron metallurgy was still very young, while smiths had been working with bronze for a very long time. They hadn't figured out all the new problems that arise while working with iron ore.
Bonze had always been something that was reserved to the elite. Iron was a lot more vulgar metal. Common tools for example to work the land were seldom made out of bronze because this was too expensive. This changes when iron is beginning to be used.
Iron ore is much easier to aquire than than copper ans tin for bronze. Often one of the components for bronze had to be imported from far away, which meant it was expensive, and like said above, only possible for the elite to do. The problem is of course: if you never have used/needed iron ore before, will you then know/be aware that iron ore is available in vast quantities? If not, can this be a stimulant to start working iron?
Most researchers seem to agree that the change from bronze to iron was not due to the fact that iron was superior to bronze (it wasn't in the initial phase, it was weaker) but because of the fact that bronze became more rare and more difficult to get due to the collapse of the exchange/trade systems of the elite. There are indeed a lot of changes noticable in the Bronze-Iron transitional period. What caused these problems/colapse of the old system is not clear. Probably several factors like climate change, demography (growing amount of people so perhaps there was land shortage and the elite couldn't keep it's position) etc...
So the switch to iron would't really have been a choice for something that was better but because of neccesity, caused by a shortage of bronze.
Vale,
Jef
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Ceasar Augustus - 05-26-2008
Oh I was not aware of that fact. :?
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - sonic - 05-27-2008
But wasn't bronze easier to work into complex shapes, especially when 'spinning' it to make helmets etc? That would account for its continued use in the military long after iron had become the dominant metal.
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - M. Demetrius - 05-27-2008
The use of bronze/brass helmets, buckles, and so on continues to this day. Many objects on ships are made of brass, which handles saltwater much better than (unpainted) iron. Copper alloys melt at a much lower temperature than iron alloys. It would be easier to make things from bronze/brass (bronze is the easier of those two) than from iron in a field smith shop.
Gladiator helmets and greaves, for example, were bronze, while their swords and spears, etc., were iron. It was not a sharp division line betweem the two ages.
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Folkert van Wijk - 05-27-2008
Thanks guys especially to Jef Pinceel, now where learning things.
Still remains the question how do these things and opinions translate into the let's say 1th and 2th century roman legionair and auxiliary...
I can understand that when it commes to something like a lorica plumata
the difference between smal parts of iron or bronze wouldn't be much considering the protecting value... But when it commes to let's say a helmet, wouldn't a bowl of iron respond differently to a blow then a bowl of bronze??
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Marcus Mummius - 05-27-2008
You're very welcome Folkert. I was talking about the Bronze-Iron transition. The situation had changed a lot by the time of the Early Imperial Roman age.
Bronze has a lot of advantages over iron. You can use it again when the object is damaged beyond repair. So even a destroyed object still had a value and could be sold. A destroyed iron object could not be melted down and used again...
Corrosion is very important. Cupric alloys are much more resistant against corrosion. They will corrode but not to the extent of iron. They will not loose their functionality as fast as iron, due to bad weather/moisture. Also, as David mentiones corrosion is even dramatically worse in maritime regions (because of the chlorides).
Also, ancient sheet bronze was much stronger than our modern bronze. This was due to the construction process. The Roman museum of Nijmegen did some tests with modern and replicated Roman bronze. They shot balista bolts at it and such. The difference was immense! Perhaps Jurjen can show you some literature on it?
I would think that cupric alloys were more expensive than iron...
Like you know it's very well possible that there were a lot more cupric alloy helmets in use than iron ones. But when broken the iron ones were thrown away, for archaeologists to find, while the cupric alloy ones were melted for the metal to be used again (the same holds up for umbones of course).
Vale,
Re: Auxilia shieldbosses why "allways" brass?? - Ceasar Augustus - 05-27-2008
You certaintly know a lot about metals.