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+--- Thread: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra (/showthread.php?tid=12621)
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Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Jona Lendering - 05-13-2008
I visited the Zoo, and learned two interesting things.
(1)
The bite of a cobra is lethal, if it is an adult one. Adult cobra's are at least a meter and a half long.
(2)
A cobra can kill a grown-up person, but needs about three, four hours until it can strike again.
So... how can you hide a cobra in a box of figs? And how can one cobra kill one Egyptian queen and two servants? I would not be surprised if Cleopatra did not commit suicide, but was killed by Roman soldiers, who got rid of the two witnesses as wel.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - arklore70 - 05-13-2008
Was it a Cobra or an Asp? I always made the bad assumption it was an asp or some type of viper.
v/r
Mike
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Jona Lendering - 05-13-2008
Quote:Was it a Cobra or an Asp?Aren't cobras and asps the same?
Death of Cleopatra - Paullus Scipio - 05-13-2008
Further to the death of Cleopatra, I'm sure I read an article somewhere not so long ago ( and I'll have to try and think where) that convincingly argued from a "whodunnit" point of view that the 'legend' doesn't stack up in many ways, and that almost certainly Octavian had her killed......she was simply too dangerous a player to be allowed to live.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - SigniferOne - 05-13-2008
Was the censorship that strong to omit this sort of factual evidence?
I cannot think of any other comparable incident, which makes doubt the "whodunnit" theory. Ancient writers may have been patriotically clouded, but they were no liars. Senatorial stoics who inveighed so heavily at the dissolution of Nero and the institution of monarchy, who called Cassius nothing other than "the last of the Romans", surely would've declaimed about this famed cover-up, if there had been evidence.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - M. Demetrius - 05-13-2008
http://www.popularpets.net/snakes/pictures/asp.php
An asp is a sort of viper, not a cobra. Now why anyone would want one for a pet is a much more complicated question. I think there would be lots of quick poisons available to the Queen of Egypt, so a snakebite doesn't seem the best choice to me, but that's what tradition says.
In Ernle Bradford's book, Cleopatra, pg 269-270 (ISBN 0-141-39014-X), he says it was a snake, but that the snake was never found. Some said they saw traces of it (I assume that means "tracks") on the beach near her window, and Octavian reported small marks, perhaps fang marks on one of her arms.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Endre Fodstad - 05-13-2008
Quote:An asp is a sort of viper, not a cobra. Now why anyone would want one for a pet is a much more complicated question.
Why would people want to watch criminals getting eaten by lions? :wink:
We would do well not to forget that people in our past sometimes liked really, to us, weird and nasty stuff.
Cleopatra\'s - Paullus Scipio - 05-13-2008
The ancient sources, particularly the Roman ones, are generally in agreement that Cleopatra poisoned herself by persuading an asp to bite her. The oldest source is Strabo, who was alive at the time of the event, and might even have been in Alexandria. He says that there are two stories: that she applied a toxic ointment, or that she was bitten by an asp. Several Roman poets, writing within ten years of the event, all mention bites by two asps ( perhaps to cover the very point Jona made about the snake needing to refill it's venom sacs ), as does Florus, a historian, some 150 years later. Velleius Paterculus, sixty years after the event, also refers to an asp
Plutarch, writing about 130 years after the event, provides the main source of Cleopatra's death. He states that she was found dead, her handmaiden Iris dying at her feet, and another handmaiden, Charmion, adjusting Cleopatra's crown (which signifcantly would probably have borne a cobra's head device on the forehead) before she herself falls. He then goes on to state that an asp was concealed in a basket of figs that was brought to her by a rustic, and finding it after eating a few figs, she holds out her arm for it to bite. Other stories state that it was hidden in a vase, and that she poked it with a spindle until it got angry enough to bite her on the arm. Finally, Plutarch eventually writes, in Octavian's Triumph back in Rome, an effigy of Cleopatra that has an asp clinging to it was displayed as part of the procession - Octavian's "official" version, hence widely believed.
Suetonius, writing about the same time as Plutarch, also says Cleopatra died from an asp bite.
In answer to James' question, only Octavian and perhaps his friends knew the truth, and no-one, let alone any senator at the time, who wished to live was going to question the "official" version.....there was no point in doing so, no faction left to query matters.
That Octavian was capable of political murder is undoubted - everyone, I think, accepts that Caesarion's tutor Rhodon betrayed him to Octavian who had him strangled and killed ( contra Pullo's happy ending in HBO's Rome ! :wink: Also contra "Rome", apparently Caesar never did acknowledge Caesarion as his son....)
with the reputed witticism; "Two sons of Caesar is one too many." Interestingly,he allowed Cleopatra's other children ( by Anthony) to live with his extended family in Rome......
The discovery channel also did a documentary in 2004 on this as a 'Cold Case', using modern forensic profiling etc and featuring well known investigator Pat Brown, who concluded the 'snakebite' story highly unlikely and murder by Octavian, as most likely.
(where did the three snakes necessary, go to? for example ... all reports are that none was found at the scene)
It is also possible the essential facts in the story are correct, that she and her hand-maidens were found dead/dying from poison from a source unknown, and the 'snakebite' theory offered up by way of explanation from baffled Romans....
There would thus appear to be two possibilities - murder or suicide, but not by 'snakebite', which seems to belong to the 'legend' category..... :?
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Jona Lendering - 05-13-2008
Quote:Was the censorship that strong to omit this sort of factual evidence?I think it was not censorship - but imagine Octavian had captured her. She would have been taken to Rome, would have been forced to walk in the triumphal entry, and it would have been impossible to execute her. A decent Roman simply did not kill a lady (cf. Aurelian's treatment of Zenobia, who spent her last years in the Villa of Hadrian in Tivoli).
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Decimus Aurelius Varus - 05-13-2008
I kinda doubt the viper theory. The victims of vipers tend to bleed excessivly, and if the story about Octavian seeing 2 bite marks is true, then the viper is out because you would not see 2 bite marks on a bleeding wound... :?
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Ironhand - 05-13-2008
Perhaps it was just the poison of the cobra or asp. Taking poison does seem fairly consistent with the typical ways females choose to commit suicide. Of course, its not as dramatic as the bite of a live snake and perhaps its just poetic license.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Jona Lendering - 05-14-2008
Quote:Perhaps it was just the poison of the cobra or asp. Taking poison does seem fairly consistent with the typical ways females choose to commit suicide. Of course, its not as dramatic as the bite of a live snake and perhaps its just poetic license.Sounds plausible.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - M. Demetrius - 05-15-2008
Well, drinking snake poison is not a sure way to die at all. It needs to get into the bloodstream. We can doubt whatever, and discuss what we think could have been, but if the people of the day say it was a viper, why not just believe them?
As for the blood around the snake bite wounds, seems like a simple wipe with a damp cloth would make the fang marks visible. Those folks were well acquainted with what kinds of poisonous snakes lived in their own area, and would probably be able to indentify the bite size and match it to likely biters.
There are snake venoms so deadly that they kill in a matter of a couple of minutes or sometimes even less. I don't know about Egyptian asp venom, and since we can't determine the species, we'll never know about that exactly.
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Tarbicus - 05-15-2008
Quote:SigniferOne:2uz33afy Wrote:Was the censorship that strong to omit this sort of factual evidence?I think it was not censorship - but imagine Octavian had captured her. She would have been taken to Rome, would have been forced to walk in the triumphal entry, and it would have been impossible to execute her. A decent Roman simply did not kill a lady (cf. Aurelian's treatment of Zenobia, who spent her last years in the Villa of Hadrian in Tivoli).
But Octavian wasn't decent anyway and has a record for breaking the most solemn of Roman taboos (think of his illegal desecration of the Temple of Vesta not long before when he 'obtained' Antony's will). The guy would do anything and was way ahead of Machiavelli. There he was with the opportunity to put an end to the long civil wars, and grab power without any baggage to be dragged along. Let's face it, we'll never know, but if I was on a jury I'd probably go with a murder conviction :wink:
Re: Cobra\'s killing Cleopatra - Senovara - 05-18-2008
Quote: Those folks were well acquainted with what kinds of poisonous snakes lived in their own area, and would probably be able to indentify the bite size and match it to likely biters.
There are snake venoms so deadly that they kill in a matter of a couple of minutes or sometimes even less. I don't know about Egyptian asp venom, and since we can't determine the species, we'll never know about that exactly.
I agree. I'd imagine Cleopatra who was highly educated in many things, would've known about these types of poisons.
And, seeing this from a woman's point of view, better to die with honourable suicide than stand humilation by Octavian and the romans and live in fear for the rest of days. She probably figured Octavian would have her killed anyway.