Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - Printable Version +- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat) +-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Thread: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts (/showthread.php?tid=12558) Pages:
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Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 05-07-2008 Now for individual replies: Quote:My suggestion is to start like the romans did, so position principia first, then porta praetoria which should face the principia. In Your square plan principia is not facing the porta praetoria. Then position of via principalis and via praetoria. THen left and right from via praetoria two granaries. That is how You would get tipical roman fort layout. I dont know how You got to this colour reconstruction since that in you explanation pic You have drawn accurate b/w ground plan??? Hi Stefan, I may reposition the buildings in question. The colour reproduction I made was based on the sketch so the location of the granaries, CO's house and Headwarters is supported by archaeological evidence. The groundplans are borrowed from the nearby fort at arbeia and its reconstructions (for CO's house). Headquarters plan from an example seen on Paul Bidwell's Roman Forts. Abour the barracks, again, the groundplan is that of the Arbeia fort, and its reconstruction, and the large room (and not a house) at the end is also supported in Paul Bidwell's Roman Forts. I presume the separate house at the end of the barracks was for larger and more prestigious fortresses (such as legionary ones) and I doubt such a small fort as the Pons Aelius one would have such luxury, especially for auxiliaries. Remember my above post, much of the reconstruction is conjectural, based on incomplete evidence, possibly faulty interpretation of that incomplete evidence and heavy borrowing from similar/nearby ground plans/constructions. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 05-07-2008 Quote:I think I have to agree with Marcus that when Mr Nolan made his projected map of the fort he did get a bit carried away, for he shows the fort far to long infact as I have mentioned in your other thread it is too elongated and the south end would fall over a cliff. Well not so much a cliff but a VERY STEEP incline down to the swing bridge area, infact if archaeologists are wanting to quote 1.53 of an acre as it's size one would think they should at least get such a drawing to match that. What it shows here is around 3acres at least but there again where in the world do they even get the figure of 1.53 from, for all that has been found is a part of the north wall the east west and south walls have never been located yet so how can anyone start quoteing size. I have shown also in your other topic how you can get 100 soldiers out of the fort, and even more so at other forts along the Wall when we consider the Milecastles that had to be manned. Hi Brian, I absolutely agree with you and the coloured sketch I made adresses these problems. The fort would have to be rather square-ish in shape, and maybe the barracks made smaller. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 05-07-2008 Quote: Hi Marcus, The horrea are as the way they are based on archaeological evidence as seen on the 1986 black and white sketch. While I know it may be unusual for them to be positioned this way, we also know not all forts followed the same pattern and a lot of improvisation was used in the later centuries. I have mainly made the colour sketch the way it is based on evidence though, the only thing conjectural is the positioning and location of the barracks. I know the roman forts where not square but had rounded edges, it was something I just did not include in the sketch. The reconstruction will surely be done with rounded edges. About the wall, again, yes they are entirely conjectural. However, like I said in my previous post, remember this reconstruction will never be 100% accurate unfortunately and so I am willing to make some mistakes in its recreation. In the future when archaeologists get it right I will make the changes accordingly. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 05-08-2008 Hi Campbell, Quote:MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS:1fvnu11e Wrote:This fort was believed to hold roughly about 480 men, so therefore about 6 barracks if my above observations are correct.Not so. The fort is generally thought to have been far too small to accommodate an entire infantry cohort. Brian has already provided solutions for the fact the fort is too small to accomodate 480 soldiers. Regarding the size of the fort and its wall positions, like I said, I am all too aware of the risk of making mistakes, but it is a risk I am willing to take with this reconstruction. Regarding the barracks, the example you gave of 10 rooms with a hypocausted suite at the end is the one I am going for. I have also read it in Paul Bidwell's Roman Forts as quite a common arrangement for auxiliary forts, and I *think* the one at arbeia is along those lines also. This is what I am going for: I am also in full agreement with you the groundplan for the granaries is unmistakebly that of a granary. As for the positioning of the CO's house and headquarters, it will follow the 1986 plan, as I believe it do be fairly accurate and as you said, there is evidence to support it with the excavated hypocaust. As for the rest, it is like you said, we cannot be too dogmatic, I am yes improvising with this seeing as very little is known, and yes I have borrowed heavily from similar sites (such as arbeia) for ground plans, buildins and so on, that are of similar forts, time periods and so on, so its not completely conjectural. However, the walls, the barracks and much else unfortunately IS as we have little evidence to make an informed judgement on it. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-08-2008 Well. of course i have not seen the groundplan of the Horreae. I was looking at the sketch which was posted. I know Horreae have their own specific ground plan and also am well aware that not every fort has the standard layout. You are correct about the image i posted it is indeed Flavian. About the 480 soldiers, here in the Netherlands we have had numerous outposts, and also a massive Castrum in which a Legion was based at full strenth. However you can never say the Legion was constantly at full strength since detachments of it were of course often on other duties elswhere, or sometimes a Legion was not fully manned. In the case of the fort you describe it is highly likely that in times of need it could have entailed 480 men. Not so imho during "peacetime" anyway its a pity not more can be excavated. still, to assume that because one building has a hypocaust installed it immediately would be an officers house might not be the right answer. more information is needed. Romans also used Hypocausts to protect their Archives from rotting away. M.VIB.M. Your fort might have looked something like this (the Utrecht Castellum) Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - jkaler48 - 05-08-2008 Would there be any other buildings? Buildings for Repair and manufacture of equipment Additional storage buildings (Artillery not on the ramparts for example) Stables for mules and horses and hay & fodder storage (8 - 10 mules per century?) Ovens for bread baking with perhaps sheds near by for dough preparation Hospital with quarters for hospital staff Latrine building (downhill end near the wall) Baths (outside the walls or in an annex) Barracks for attached/assigned cavalry Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - D B Campbell - 05-08-2008 Quote:Well. of course i have not seen the groundplan of the Horreae.You can see them on the two plans that I have posted, H.J. I'm sure you'll agree that they exhibit the standard granary-type foundations. Quote:still, to assume that because one building has a hypocaust installed it immediately would be an officers house might not be the right answer.But that would be a room in the principia, which we already have in its usual central position. The neighbouring building, with the luxury of a hypocausted room, can only (imho) be the praetorium. Quote:Your fort might have looked something like this (the Utrecht Castellum)Very nice image, H.J. Thanks for posting it! Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-08-2008 Most welcome!! did they find any trace of mural paint work in the Principium and /or the Praetoria? Bout the horrea, i just saw the small overlay pic by Nolan didnt see the other thread till now LOL indeed Horrea!! WEIRDDD Place!!! The pic is also for a fort of about 500.. maybe a little less... Its how we believe the Utrecht Castellum may have looked 1st 2nd century A the jear of the Ivdaean rebel. M.VIB.M. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - PhilusEstilius - 05-08-2008 I think where Duncan has said that this fort is to problematic, and an easier one should be found for heavens sake don't choose Chesters for this one is even more problematic, 3 bathhouses an external grannery on the river bank, 2 Roman dams on the river above and below the Roman bridge and even more. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 05-08-2008 Quote:I think where Duncan has said that this fort is to problematic, and an easier one should be found for heavens sake don't choose Chesters for this one is even more problematic, 3 bathhouses an external grannery on the river bank, 2 Roman dams on the river above and below the Roman bridge and even more. lol.. ok guys lets calm down, like I have reiterated in my other thread, MUCH OF THIS WORK IS CONJECTURAL. This will be made known in the reproductions, the only buildings we have a faint idea of the location are the granaries, the CO's House and Headquarters. Although walls have been located we do not know if these are fort walls, hadrian's wall or curtain walls. Thus, this work WILL be innacurate in some aspects due to what little knowledge we have. We have also spent too much time now and have made too much progress with the images and models themselves to look back now. Re: Barrack Sizes and fort layouts - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 05-09-2008 What you could do is use the Groma technique... from Praetorium and Principium you draw 4 straight lines, then use the barracks and regular spacing between Roman fort buildings to get the outlines. doenst work always of course, housesteads is Oblong too... but its a start.. M.VIB.M. |