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Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 04-14-2008
Ok, so I have a question, and tried searching first through the forum and didnt find an answer, although I suspect I must have missed it in the 85+ pages that showed up.
Anyway, taking only my little re-enacting experience into account, I seem to notice obviously auxiliary soldiers dress differently than their legionary counterparts. The tunic may be a different colour (i've yet to see red), maybe longer sleeves, it can be patterned, eg tartan, checked, etc.... the shield emblem is usually different, helmets are usually coolus/gaelic types... the they have a choice for a spatha... and then comes the armour.
Although there has been recent discussion maybe auxilia did wear lorica segmentata, this is not my point. My point is, seeing as there are so many differences, as explained above, between the kits, why is it I seem to always see the same type of chain mail (that is, with shoulder doublings) for both Legionary's and Auxilia?
Wasnt it a more celtic/germanic/generic barbarian practice to wear them without doublings? Or even with doublings, but the V shaped ones, or the one usually reserved for cavalry use (I remember Johhny made a good picture of a gallic cavalry unit wearing one). Deepeeka has a set of 2-3 kinds generally avoided by re-enactors but that seem to be more suitable to barbarians and such. The doublings in the style generally worn seem to be a more mediterranean sytle judging by the Carthaginians, Latins, and even greeks with their linothorax (the same type of doubler is used here as in the chain mail favoured by the legions).
So, with this in mind, why has the type of armour worn by celtic/germanic/barbarian peoples failed to translate into the auxiliary kit as nearly everything else has? Is there any re-enactment group out there which its auxiliary cohort adheres to the more exotic type of chain mail and leaves the typical type with the doubler to the legionary miles?
Discuss
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Peroni - 04-14-2008
For starters, if as a Celtic warrior elite you had the means to be able to wear a mail shirt, you probably owned the village too! Very few warriors were armoured. You were someone if you had a sword!
The Kirkburn mail shirt from Yorkshire didn't have a cape doubler, but a variation of the Greek style.
The cape style doubling was used well into the second century by auxiliary cavalrymen. It may have added a lot more unnecessary weight to the infantryman's kit though.
The shoulder doubling in the Greek style disappears in the mid second century for infantry soldiers too. This was probably dictated by the enemy fighting styles and weapons.
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 04-15-2008
Did the social hierarchy continue the same after the romans took over though?
Did the barbarian metalsmiths lose their jobs when the romans invaded or merely served new masters? Would they not continue to make chain mail the old way for the auxiliary troops levied from their province?
What I don't really understand is, even is having a hamata was only for the rich, why does the gallic type usually appear with cavalry, but not with the infantry? Not even other types or mail are frequently seen, which are associated with germanic or celtic warriors. And if it was for the weight, why did the legionaries wear the doubler ones?
Legionary and auxilia Mail - Paullus Scipio - 04-15-2008
Peroni wrote:-
Quote:The cape style doubling was used well into the second century by auxiliary cavalrymen. It may have added a lot more unnecessary weight to the infantryman's kit though....having said that, it should perhaps be mentioned that the mail worn by auxiliary cavalry and infantry on Trajan's column, and other Trajanic monuments show no shoulder re-inforcements of any kind, if I recall correctly. Similarly, none of the mail shirts, including legionary ones, on the Adamklissi monument have shoulder re-inforcements, even ( perhaps surprisingly) the legionaries equipped with re-inforced helmets, greaves and manica to take on Bastarnae tribesmen armed with two-handed falxes.
The shoulder doubling in the Greek style disappears in the mid second century for infantry soldiers too. This was probably dictated by the enemy fighting styles and weapons.
The 'simple' mail shirt without shoulder pieces can be seen on sculptures as early as 1st Century BC (e.g. the headless seated sculpture from Aix-en-Provence, though this is often identified as a Gaul. Some 1st Century AD auxiliary tomb sculptures also depict the 'simple' mail shirt....
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Octavianvs - 04-15-2008
Scipiom wrote - none of the mail shirts, including legionary ones, have shoulder re-inforcements, even ( perhaps surprisingly) the legionaries equipped with re-inforced helmets, greaves and manica to take on Bastarnae tribesmen armed with two-handed falxes
perhaps the shoulder doubling was seen as not as needed anymore as much as the other protective items were and relying on the shield to protect the shoulders. it would have been similar as to redistribute the weight from the shoulder doublingwith the manica greaves reinforcing strips on the helm. My theory on it anyway.
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - arklore70 - 04-15-2008
I have had quite a few pleasant conversations on doubler and no doubler with many friends from RAT and the community.
I'll share some of the knowledge gleamed from Peroni, Matt Lukes, the many re-enactor friends I have met all across the United States (working on Europe ) and my own experimentation.
A single layer of mail, in either a roman pattern or all riveted pattern seems to adequately protect against a sword slash or chop. I have tried this myself on pieces of mail with a sharpened carbon steel sword, though not a gladius or spatha. I put everything I had behind the blow. Some of the rings did bend, but none of the rivets popped and no rings were cut through, even with the wire gauge of about 21 on the all riveted shirt.
However, such a blow I am sure would transfer significant blunt force trauma to the wearer. I would imagine that broken and bruised collar bones and rings would have occurred from such a blow, and were quite common. A subarmalis would absorb some of this energy, as would a second layer of mail backed with a full leather lining. Getting a blow in with that much power also might come at considerable risk to the wielder as it would more than likely have them off balance and over exposed to a counter attack from the struck or another trooper.
However, the doubler adds about 5-7 pounds of weight, and is in itself about 1/4 of a mail shirt. Cost, weight, change in tactics , as well as the increase in size of the neck guard may have all been reasons for the doubler in the hamata to not be used and to perhaps eventually be discarded by the mid second century.
I have never felt any mobility differences in wearing a hamata with and with out the doubler, although I did find it easier to run faster and race around with out it.
Personally, I think the doubler not only looks cool, but gives a very distinct "Roman Look" to mail. In addition, if I were going to have to take one in the shoulder, say from a Dacian Falx or Celt Longsword, I would really want as much stuff possible in between the weapon and me
Course I would really try my best not to get hit in the first place.
V/r
Mike
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 04-15-2008
Quote:Personally, I think the doubler not only looks cool, but gives a very distinct "Roman Look" to mail. In addition, if I were going to have to take one in the shoulder, say from a Dacian Falx or Celt Longsword, I would really want as much stuff possible in between the weapon and me
Course I would really try my best not to get hit in the first place.
V/r
Mike
Thanks Mike.
The last point you make is precisely my point. I know doublers added weight and protection to the miles, but like you said, isnt it a more ''roman practice'' to wear them like that, and why didnt the celtic/germanic mail types translate into their romanised infantry cohorts (as did nearly every other piece of equipment). The one exception seems to be the cavalry.
Regards,
Yuri
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Lugorix - 04-16-2008
I've always wondered why these shirts are sleeveless, too. Those early shirts still leave alot exposed!
Anyway, I wear a copy of the Kickburn shirt and find it very comfortable. Before I had that one I would wear a shirt w/o a doubler. Not much difference in my experience, but the the newer shirt is finer and may make the difference even with the double adding more weight above center of gravity. This Kickburn shirt is dated early, before any Roman influence.
All the depictions of guys wearing chain on horseback might be misleading. Just look at coins, for example. Rarely is infantry shown (if at all?). More often it's the noble horse-riders that are shown- as a display of wealth and prowess. Wealthy warriors probably had horses, too. But I think we are stuck with a real lack of representation of infantry, and any of those wearing mail.
I think the artwork on triumphal arches and columns are nice to look at and read the story, but I hardly put any reconstruction-value on the artwork shown on them since they are often built many years after the occasion, and the gear that is shown very rarely reflects archaeological finds. Imagine if Roman reenactors were wearing loricas as depicted on Trajan's Column, or Celts were carrying carnicies with realistic cow-heads. Or my favorite: the hexagonal shield!
But I digress........
It's my understanding that the doubling was a normal feature on early armor, be it made out of any material, eventually going out of fashion (sleeves are a good thing, and doublers are Olde School). I think the doublers, not capes, were been worn by auxilia into the first century.
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Peroni - 04-16-2008
Quote:Similarly, none of the mail shirts, including legionary ones, on the Adamklissi monument have shoulder re-inforcements, even ( perhaps surprisingly) the legionaries equipped with re-inforced helmets, greaves and manica to take on Bastarnae tribesmen armed with two-handed falxes.
Beg to differ, but this soldier has a shoulder doubling Paul...
![[Image: met-c.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/more/met-c.jpg)
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Folkert van Wijk - 04-16-2008
Quote: I think the artwork on triumphal arches and columns are nice to look at and read the story, but I hardly put any reconstruction-value on the artwork shown on them since they are often built many years after the occasion, and the gear that is shown very rarely reflects archaeological finds. Imagine if Roman reenactors were wearing loricas as depicted on Trajan's Column, or Celts were carrying carnicies with realistic cow-heads. Or my favorite: the hexagonal shield!
Good discussion guys, keep it going!! :wink:
My idea about the triumphal arches is that is shows the barbarians and auxiliary in a archetypal way to make them recognizable as foreigners. Pretty much like the way we draw the native Americans now a days. With long black hair, bare chest and 1 or 2 feathers on the back of there heads...
The same goes for the depiction of Celtic shields, what you see on the columns are simplified versions of the much more complicated Celtic patterns...
Legionary and Auxiliary Mail - Paullus Scipio - 04-16-2008
Hi Adrian !!
Quote:Beg to differ, but this soldier has a shoulder doubling Paul...
...uuum, to some degree,and it may be a matter of interpretation, but I have a much larger image of that particular metope, and I am all but certain there is no shoulder doubling.....what you are looking at is the upper level of pteruges emerging at the shoulder... combined with the sword scabbard fastenings....
However, you are quite right! There is one metope where a shoulder doubler is displayed (but only one)... on a squamata!
There are a couple of oddities about this figure.( I apologise for the quality of the reproduction, but itis as good as I can get it) There is only one doubler, and it is on the 'wrong' side from its cut ( i.e. the indent is on the inner/chest side, when normally you would expect to see it on the outer/arm side....a 'left' doubler, worn on the right ).
Next, he is clearly wearing a greave on the left leg ( it comes up over his braccae, c.f. right leg ) and the greave seems to have a head of some sort, possibly a lion's head or similar, embossed on the kneecap.
Finally, although the head is all but gone, there is a tantalising suggestion of what may be a crista transversa/crossways crest above the faint outline of the helmet.
When viewing try enlarging the image, and displaying it in 'negative' to get some of these features to come out....
Over the years, given the squamata, decorated greave, possible transverse crest etc, one is very tempted to suggest this figure is meant to be a centurion......
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Dan Howard - 04-16-2008
People continually underestimate the influence of fashion on armour design. IMO the only reason that the hamata had shoulder doublings is because it was the current fashion.
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - MARCVS PETRONIVS MAIVS - 04-16-2008
Quote:People continually underestimate the influence of fashion on armour design. IMO the only reason that the hamata had shoulder doublings is because it was the current fashion.
Perhaps it arose out of other needs, but then became the norm, or as you said, it became fashionable to have them.
That is why I think there should be a greater representation of a ''celtic'' fashion when it comes to their mail, as we clearly have examples of how their mail differed from those of mediterranean people.
I was also under the impression a squamata with doublings was no big deal? :roll:
Re: Legionary & Auxilia Chain Mail - Peroni - 04-16-2008
Quote:Over the years, given the squamata, decorated greave, possible transverse crest etc, one is very tempted to suggest this figure is meant to be a centurion......
The sword is positioned on the right though.
More detailed here.. (Legion Ireland website)
http://www.romanarmy.ie/adamDSC00815.JPG
Looking at the mail-armoured soldier in this more detailed pic I have to concede to the upper layer of pteruges! There's still something else going on in the right shoulder area that isn't either the pteruges or the baldric though. (again from the Legion Ireland website)
http://www.romanarmy.ie/adamDSC00829.jpg
Legionary and Auxiliary Mail - Paullus Scipio - 04-17-2008
Peroni/Adrian wrote
Quote:The sword is positioned on the right though......Good point, Adrian!....though of course we don't know for certain that centurions always wore theirs on the left ( and one wonders how the custom, if it was one, arose in the first place...there must have been a reason? ), and one suspects that individual personal preference might enter into it.... so perhaps not fatal to the hypothesis, though it certainly casts doubts....
Quote:There's still something else going on in the right shoulder area that isn't either the pteruges or the baldric though.
...sorry, Adrian, not sure what you are referring to here? Could you elaborate?