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+--- Thread: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) (/showthread.php?tid=11827)
Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Magnus - 02-19-2008
Hello everyone,
Below are two examples of a scutum design I've tweaked from our old one as Legio XXX Ulpia Victrix. On discussing it with a few of the members, and my own feeling to have a new look now that we'll be eventually changing to II Trajana Fortis Coh III, I figured a new shield design was in order.
The reason I noted this thread a controversial, is because the original design from Trajan's column I've changed a bit. I've removed the center smooth bolts and replaced them with this simpler, angled version noted as being on an auxilliary's shield or citizen cohort member's. It is still from Trajan's Column, but the origin of it may not be Legionary (thanks Ade!). There is also a small variation on the bolt tips...smooth and arrow-head.
The other difference is in the tablets, one version simply has LEG and II, while the other one has a bit more of the name LEG II and TR FOR. This latter one may be handy when doing events with other "2nd" named units.
Last but not least is the use of the colour green. Having scant evidence already for scutum colour, I don't want to be stretching things anymore than I have to, but the popular expression "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" may apply? Green paint and dyes were well known to the Romans.
I'd like opinions...I'm heavily leaning to green (there is a group in the UK currently using green on their scuta), as it will also match our tunic colour choice. There are also auxilliary units using green shields and Legions using blue tunica and blue scuta.
So please post your ideas...I'll welcome all opinions. 8)
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - arklore70 - 02-19-2008
Matt,
I like it.
Let's not forget that I believe it was in the Civil War of 69 AD that Legionaries borrowed/stole shields/scuta from the other waring faction and were able to infiltrate the enemy lines and were able to disable a piece of artillery that was giving the their side quite the difficult time. I guess my point being that something had to make the shields stand out, which in my mined background color would be the easiest. Speculation of course, but something was definitely recognizable.
Mike
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-19-2008
Yes it was the civil war, they were out to disable the oppositions artillery, which they succeeded in doing. Paid with their lives.
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Peroni - 02-19-2008
This same shield design appears on Trajan's Column - but...
it's being carried by what appears to be an auxiliary soldier! It has been suggested that these men belong to Cohors Scutata or Pedites Singulares as they are often shown in close proximity to the emperor.
Both are possible, but I personally think these men could also be from the Volunteer Citizen Cohorts. (Cohors Voluntariorum civium Romanorum)
This is backed-up by a shield cover from Roomburg from such an auxiliary unit that is rectangular! (van Driel-Murray)
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Rutilia - 02-19-2008
I like the green myself and the tablets with the more descriptive name is also nifty. I think it's an excellent idea. Rock on!
Rutilia
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - M. Demetrius - 02-19-2008
What I like about your design, Magnus, is that it is fairly simple. It would be recognizable from a distance, which unless I'm completely off here, would be the primary purpose of having a distinct design in the first place. If the soldier were close enough to distinguish a complicated blazon that was only a little different from other similar shields, you could just ask him, "Say, frater, which unit are you with?" seems to me.
For what it's worth, and not much, admittedly, the later medieval knight's heraldry served basically the same purpose: to be able to recognize certain units (or individuals) on the field without having to wonder. I guess you might need a secret blazon decoder sheet or something, after a while. To the enemies, back in Rome, it wouldn't make so much difference which legion a soldier was from, but to the officers on the hill, it would, I suppose.
I wonder if a unit that survived from older times, like say, the 13th, would have had some holdover from whatever Republic blazon was existing, adding perhaps an honorary emblem or something.
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Hibernicus - 02-19-2008
I like the GREEN and the longer set of abbreviations.
We chose red as a background color so many years ago because the limited amount of info available gave us no hint or suggestion that any other color was legitimately plausible.
The green would add to its uniqueness and recognizability and the full set of abbreviations would clearly deliniate the group's name. The abbreviations would also draw questions.. "What does that mean?" .. from the public, and become yet another opportunity to educate, to talk about why abbreviations were used on shields and monuments and buildings...
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-19-2008
Yeah, I would go with the longer set of abbreviations too. to have it say 'LEG' in one and the numeral it hthe other seems a bit odd to me, but who am I to argue. i like the way it identifies not just your legion but also your cohorte!
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Magnus - 02-19-2008
Thanks for the great input everyone!
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - griffin - 02-19-2008
Matt,
I like the Green one too, for all the same reasons as above. The only problem is whether or not it is too similar to the auxiliary shield...
Either way, I think that it will be an effective shield. We will have sufficient data to inform the public about our choices for shield colourings/designs.
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Magnus - 02-19-2008
Yeah...the bolt thing...I really, really like that design! Though I don't think it's a make or break for the usage of it. Many bolt patterns are repeat patterns over different sculptures, or at least similar ones.
Scuta colour/emblem - Paullus Scipio - 02-19-2008
If we look at Trajan's column, there are something over 18-20 different Praetorian/Legionary shield designs. Most are variations on the 'Thunderbolt' designs, varying from the simplest ( central 'bolt', with single 'flash' each side, no wings) to the most complex ( the Praetorian designs) but there are also four designs that are completely different, one with 'whorls' that may represent non-Roman origin ( i.e. could possibly be XXII Deiotoriana) and three with a 'wreath' design, each one different. These may represent the three Legions raised by Trajan, XXX Ulpia, I Traiana and II Traiana.
As with the Auxiliary designs on another thread, I can post these or send them by regular e-mail if anyone is interested.....
As to colour, many years ago, Phil Barker maintained that Vegetius, in referring to the 'antiqua Legio', "...stated that each cohort of a Legion used
a different main colour, though presumably keeping to a common design.." ( Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome, 3rd edition) - curiously dropped from the 4th edition....This idea also appeared in Peter Connolly's "Roman Army" and "Greece and Rome at War".
I have not personally seen this reference, but then there is no complete translation of Vegetius into English, apparently.....Perhaps someone with access to the complete Vegetius can enlighten us as to whether this another 'Barker Myth'...?
As to your design, the only one like it that I know of ( without a central 'spine' design, and with 'entablature') is the one identified tentatively by me as that of XIV Gemina, on the basis of the design appearing in legionary hands on a Mainz sculpture of c. 75 AD at a time when XIV Gemina was there, and a very similar design appearing on the tombstone of Gnaeus Musius, aqulifer of XIV Gemina.......your design is a variation of this one.
D
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Gaius Julius Caesar - 02-19-2008
I would be interested Paullus!
Re: Choosing a new Scutum Emblem/Scheme (Controversial!) - Magnus - 02-19-2008
So I should be ok then Paul?
Scutum designs - Paullus Scipio - 02-20-2008
Matt/Magnus wrote:-
Quote:So I should be ok then Paul?......sure, Matt, why not? Your design isn't exactly any real pattern, though close to one that is probably that of Legio XIIII Gemina c. 75AD....and the elements of your design all appear on the real thing...... the red of the 'Dura Europos' shield isn't the only colour possibility, so go for it ! ( though for mine, I think one of the three 'wreath' designs a possibility at least for Legio II Traiana - see above post
I am attaching the relevant page and two text explanations from Phil Barker's "Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome" 4th edition, as these all appear on one page, together with explanatory notes from the same source.
I should say that in some cases I have changed my views since the 1970's, when I carried out the original work....e.g. I believe the two hexagonal shields (xxvii and xxviii) from a Trajanic frieze are more likely to be both Praetorian Cavalry than one of them 'Singulares'....