+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. (/showthread.php?tid=11664)
Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - caiusbeerquitius - 02-02-2008
Since in all different kinds of thread there are thoughts about and questions about colours, I thought it might be seinsible to start an own thread about it.
Collection of pigments used by the Romans for painting, please give input so that corrections or additions can be made:
black: burned bone
red: iron oxide, cinnabar
brown/yellow: ochre
yellow: bismuth, lead tin oxide, copper-arsenic carbonate
green: malachite, green earth, Florence green, green jasper,
blue: lapis lazuli, azurite, egyptian blue
white: lead oxide (modern version is titanium oxide, less unhealthy)
bonds known in antiquity:
casein Casein Paint
beeswax: Encaustic Paint
yolk or yolk - egg-white mix (dries faster) Tempera Paint
lineseed oil Oil Paint (Dangerous, self-inflammable liquid!)
hide glue Glue Paint
Dyeing means for leather. Alumn treatment necessary?
Some people have reached good results in either applying milk paint ot oil paint to leather.
black: iron-vinegar mixture
red: madder, birch leaves
yellow: Mingnonette?
green:?
blue: indigo, ?
white:?
Dyeing means for textiles. The colour produced by the different dyes also depends on the mordant used before the dyeing process:
alum (I), iron sulphate (II), or copper sulphate (III)
black:iron-vinegar mixture (I),
red: madder (I) (III), cochineal (I), kermes (I)
violett: elder berries (I), blueberry (I)
purple: purple (I?), cochineal (I)
yellow:birch leaves (I), nettle (I), onion paring (I), mingonette (I),
green: horsetail (I) (II), nettle (II), dyer´s-broom (I)
blue: woad (I), indigo( I), logwood (I)
white: bleach / fermented urine, ?
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Tarbicus - 02-02-2008
Quote:yolk (tempera)
Tempera can also be made with a mix of the egg white (abumen) and yolk. This makes the tempera dry faster, but makes the paint 'drag' while painting. I think you also need to paint it on a ground such as gesso, so perhaps include grounds in the list?
Cochineal is spelt.... cochineal :wink: I always thought it was purely New World and didn't realise there was 'Polish cochineal' from Central Europe and Eurasia.
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - caiusbeerquitius - 02-02-2008
Amended. In Germany we spell it either french: Cochenille or, rarer, German: Koschenille.
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Marcus Julius - 02-02-2008
Quote:Dyeing means for leather.
blue: indigo, ?
Out of curiosity, why do you list only indigo for dying leather, but also woad for cloth. The blue pigment chemical, indigotin, is the same whether it comes from woad or from indigo.
FYI Woad is a hartier plant than indigo and therefore easier to grow. The primary reason why it is still in use today, even though indigo has a higher concentration of pigment. Additionally, so far, I've read only two pieces discussing natural dyes. They conflict on when Indigo came into use in the west, one claiming that it wasn't used until the 17th century, and the other claiming that it was first traded into the Mediterranean region in the 11th. Bear in mind, however, that these are both short papers, and I haven't checked any primary sources.
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - caiusbeerquitius - 02-02-2008
Quote:that it wasn't used until the 17th century, and the other claiming that it was first traded into the Mediterranean region in the 11th. Bear in mind, however, that these are both short papers, and I haven't checked any primary sources.I think this is about when it returned - same with Egyptian blue, for the production of which knowlege was lost during the migration period, and returned in the 17th century to Europe.
The pigment is identical, yes, but I am not so sure if it actually works on leather, that´s why there is a question mark.
´The chemical reaction is identical for the materials, but the process of dyeing / gaining the material is not exactly the same, that´s why it is listed twice for the textiles.
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Carlton Bach - 02-02-2008
I can't speak for its use in painting, but tin oxide was found as a white pigment in a cosmetic preparation from Roman Britain.
How sure are you about the oil paint? It is a serious bone of contention among medieval reenactors how early to place the technique, with many still believing it dates to the 14th century. I can currently securely date it to the early 12th, very much ante quem.
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Tarbicus - 02-02-2008
Is it worth noting that glue can be used for sizing a surface?
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - John Conyard - 02-03-2008
Colouring leather is something I would like to get to the bottom of.
As I understand there are no find of dyed leather in the UK until after the Norman conquest. The process changes the chemical composition of the leather and so can be detected even if not visible to the naked eye. Painted and gilded leather is found. And the general finds of light brown leather can be darker in some areas compared to others.
Some my own rule for leather allows me to use:-
1/ Simple vegetable tanned leather.
2/ Darker brown leather, produced by the tanning process. Oiling or waxing leather will also darken it.
3/ Small amounts of black leather, soon to be grey/blue, made by contacting the wet leather with iron.
4/ Leather painted red, for high status equipment.
Illustrations from Dura seem to show a uniform light brown, with red for officers.
Ink used on vellum is another issue. But such ink seems to partially burn itself into the vellum, and I wouldn't want it near my leatherwork.
I suspect there are examples of dyed leather from the Mediterranean. Perhaps some dyed book covers?
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Tarbicus - 02-03-2008
There seems to have been a fair amount of dyed leather at Qasr Ibrim:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=2886
and Vindolanda and Vindonissa:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=122501
More comments here, which points out alum tanned leather can be dyed with a number of colours:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/posting.ph ... te&p=82969
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - John Conyard - 02-03-2008
As I say I'm not surprised at dyed leather from the Mediterranean area.
Although I would like to know when Alum dying became common. I know many "Dark Age" societies that would not allow it.
And I would like to know of any specific dyed pieces of leather from Vindolanda. Corbridge leather does seem to be a darker brown than some, but there is no evidence of any dyes been used. Of course leather deposited underground can change colour due to natural chemical reactions with mineral deposits, rain water etc.
I don't like definitive statements at the best of times. But the idea of dyed leather being post conquest does seem to have some substance to it.
Unless of course somebody knows differently.........
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - caiusbeerquitius - 02-03-2008
Oil-colour: An expert on the archaeoforum says that the Edfu mummy portraits were made with oil colour, and that there are oil-painted Roman textiles in the Abegg-Stiftung (foundation).
in fact it would be amazing, if oil paint would NOT have been used in Antiquity´when regarding the large amounts in which linseed and linseed oil were produced in what is nowadays souther Turkey, and elsewhere.
Jim: Yes it is worth noting. In fact you already noted.
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Caballo - 02-03-2008
Well, Pliny the Elder refers to madder being used to dye leather, and Apuleius writes of a red Moroccan saddle. Silius Italicus refers to red Libyan leather. I wonder whether the modern North African leather coloured a deep red brown is the same?
So, I think we are on fairly safe ground- a good section in Graham Sumner's book deals with this as well.
IIRC there is a reference somewhere to barbarians in undyed leather, but can I remember the source......? :roll:
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Tarbicus - 02-03-2008
Where's Pliny in all this?
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - caiusbeerquitius - 02-03-2008
Pliny? That´s that dead dude, right?
Re: Colour, dyeing, pigments etc. - Caballo - 02-03-2008
He's certainly not been looking well recently.....