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+--- Thread: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope (/showthread.php?tid=11416)
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New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - sitalkes - 01-04-2008
Hi, the attached is a tiny horse decoration discovered in 2007 in Bulgaria. It looks like a hoplite but I think it shows a Thracian heavy cavalry trooper. His spear or lance appears to be wrapped in a rope, why is that? :?:
Cheers,
Chris
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - Hoplitesmores - 01-04-2008
When is this dated?Maybe the rope is part of the riders equipment for the horse?
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - Hoplitesmores - 01-04-2008
Could he have thrown it close and than pull it back? But it doesn't seem right.....He has something around his hand thats thicker, is it the rope or something else?
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - sitalkes - 01-04-2008
I think it is 4th Century BC. There's nothing special about the hand when you look even closer. I can't fit the picture on this page as the file is too big but I can email it to you if you like. I've never seen anything like this - was it done for hunting boar , is it like a harpoon or something like that?
Chris
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - Hoplitesmores - 01-04-2008
please do
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - PMBardunias - 01-04-2008
Quote:I've never seen anything like this - was it done for hunting boar , is it like a harpoon or something like that?
Perhaps this is simplistic, but why not a rope to sling the spear across the man's shoulder or back? How would a cavalryman carry such a spear when not in combat?
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - MeinPanzer - 01-04-2008
Quote:Hi, the attached is a tiny horse decoration discovered in 2007 in Bulgaria. It looks like a hoplite but I think it shows a Thracian heavy cavalry trooper. His spear or lance appears to be wrapped in a rope, why is that? :?:
Cheers,
Chris
Looks to me very classicized in pose, treatment, and equipment. Any details on the costume or equipment that make you think it was a faithful representation of a Thracian, Chris? I can't make out any details of the helmet from that small image, unfortunately.
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - Alexander Polemos - 01-04-2008
could the rope have been possibly tied to the pommel of saddle?the spear head seems to be fairly easy to remove from a body. but if it got stuck.... horses momentum yank it out?
edit: never mind... the rope yanking tight would probably hurt the rider
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - sitalkes - 01-04-2008
:oops: Sorry, guys, I just found the official publication of that find, it seems some of the things I had been told previously were wrong. Actually it came from a tomb that included the marvellousy detailed life-size bronze sculpture of the head of Seuthes 111, who fought against Alexander's generals in Thrace... There was also a Chalcidian helmet with Seuthes' name on it, a pair of bronze greaves (moulded to include the face of the Thracian mother goddess on the knees) and the item in question:
"On the floor of the chamber was lying the ruler's sword in a sheath made of iron, wood, and leather, decorated with two solid rectangular gold applications. On their front part, in a splendid framework of plant and geometric ornaments, [the] god Ares is modelled: standing upright, full face, with muscular legs, the weight falls on the left leg; in his right hand he is holding a spear around which a snake is winding; his left hand is on his hip; chain armou, under which a short chiton with short sleeves is showing; on his head there is a [Chalcidian] helmet..; long waving hair. It is logical that an image of the god of war should be placed on a sword; besides, the cult of Ares was popular in ancient Thrace."
Well, yes it's logical and yes it's a typical classical pose but that snake doesn't have markings, a head or tail; looks like a rope to me. I guess I should look up a few more pictures of Ares.
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - Paullus Scipio - 01-05-2008
One needs to take these initial descriptions with a grain of salt, Chris !
hock: ...and 'Ares' likely means 'local war god'
see also 'Thracian King's Tomb' thread here and was your on-line information source here ? :-
www.kroraina.com/thracia/gk/
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - sitalkes - 01-05-2008
Well, a web and Perseus search isn't definitive but it's quite interesting the images of Ares I have seen only rarely have this pose except for those in sculpture, and none of them have a snake associated with them. Those in sculpture (and nearly all the others) hold a shield in their left hand. Ares is supposed to be a Thracian god that was adopted by the Greeks, but this is rather different from a Greek Ares. So this is definitely a Thracian Ares, and probably wears 4th century Thracian gear.
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - Komanos - 01-06-2008
Could we get any other pictures? I agree its hard to see a convincing snake there, but that may yet be the answer. Can we really identify chain armor and a Chalcidian helmet? The Chalcidian helm isn't really surprising at all, if that's what it is, but chain mail would be very surprising, and from what I can see it looks more like a solid cuirass. Also, does he have a sword suspended at his right side? I can't quite tell, but that would not be a very Hellenic detail.
Strange Thracian Spear - Paullus Scipio - 01-06-2008
...I really don't think a snake would be depicted hanging so lifelessly, or straight in parts - to me , it cannot be anything but a clearly depicted rope....though apart from some kind of harpoon,( a shipboard grappling harpoon device?) or possibly some sort of symbolic meaning, I'm at a loss for explanations...... :?
And definitely not mail....his body armour was apparently leather - perhaps a Tube-and-Yoke corselet.... :wink:
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - sitalkes - 01-06-2008
The text doesn't say "Chalcidian" helmet, it actually says "like the one we found in the tomb" which is a Chacidian helmet, but I think that it has a definite crest, so it is a Thracian helmet or something like that. There's no way the armour could be mail, but that might just be a translation problem. Another detail of the armour is attached. Hard to say if it is a sword or a wrinkle in the metal.
Re: New discovery shows spear wrapped in a rope - artaxerxes - 01-08-2008
Hi there,
If he's a cavalryman, perhaps the rope is just part of horse equipment, whip, lasso, whatever.
If it's a depiction (however idealised) of an actual person, rather than a god, perhaps he was a famous rider or horse-breaker?
regards
David Brown