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Is this a myth? - Gladius Hispaniensis - 12-31-2007
Ave
I am reading Peter Heather's "Fall of the Roman Empire" and on page 184 he mentions an unnamed emperor who had some Sarmatians massacred in the Colosseum in 388 C.E. I am assuming this must have involved some gladiatorial show. I was rather surprised because I had always thought that gladiatorial games were banned when Christianity became official in the Empire - or is this another myth?
Abolition of "Games" - Paullus Scipio - 12-31-2007
Well, the answer is a little complex......
Constantine ascended the throne in 312 AD, and sent many POW's to fight in the arena.He later issued an edict ostensibly abolishing the games completely in 326/325 AD, while he was in Beirut, possibly under pressure from the Bishops etc assembled for the Nicaean council of 327 AD.( which resolved the Arian controversy, though 'Arianism' lasted another 200 years....) Nevertheless, the games continued, particularly in the West, supported by Constantine who wrote to two Italian towns agreeing that the priests of Umbria and Hispellum should continue to put on Gladiator shows, and that the Etruscan towns should put on shows jointly in Volsinnii.
The quaestors in Rome continued to give the annual December games until at least 354 AD and maybe later ( Constantine had died in 337 AD, becoming a christian on his deathbed.)
An edict of Constantius II in 357 AD forbade soldiers and civil servants from taking part in the games, and eight, and again ten years later Valentinian prohibited the condemnation of Christians to the gladiators schools....so the games were still continuing!
St John Chrysostom was still referring to gladiatorial games in Antioch in 392 AD.
The last Imperial Gladiator schools were closed by the last western Emperor,Honorius in 399 AD ( he was little more than a puppet)....but the Games continued.
St Augustine railed against them in his Confessions c.400 AD.
A few years later, Prudentius was urging the Emperor to allow criminals condemned to the arena to fight only animals.
Famously in 404 AD( and possibly a myth) a monk named Telemachus, jumped down, interupting a Gladiator fight.The angry crowd tore him apart, giving Honorius an excuse to abolish the games.
The animal fights continued !!
Anastasius banned them in an edict of 499....but they continued and were not "finally" abolished until 681 AD.......but of course we have these bestiary contests to this day in parts of the former Empire, notably Spanish Bullfights........
Re: Is this a myth? - Caballo - 12-31-2007
And bullfighting also continues in the old Roman amphitheatre at Nimes, France.
![[Image: l269-p-nimes3-arenes.jpg]](http://www.maison-en-provence.com/photos/l269-p-nimes3-arenes.jpg)
![[Image: Corrida_a_Nimes_I.jpg]](http://www.vincent-formica.com/Corrida_a_Nimes_I.jpg)
And also in SW France they still do bull leaping as shown in the Minoan frescoes http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/~jim/photos/b ... dance.html
From modern France- with the feet in a small sack (just to make it a bit more challenging..... :roll: )
![[Image: ecarteur.jpg]](http://www.gascogne.fr/images/ecarteur.jpg)
Re: Is this a myth? - Caballo - 12-31-2007
And from the Minoan frescoes in Crete
![[Image: minoanbullfresco2.jpg]](http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/siias/images1/minoanbullfresco2.jpg)
Myth of the games - Paullus Scipio - 12-31-2007
Quote:And bullfighting also continues in the old Roman amphitheatre at Nimes, France....and Roman amphitheatres in Spain are also used.....
So there you go, Imad, the "Games" in one form or another still live on today !!
hock: .....albeit without gladiators fighting to the death - our taste for human blood as spectacle is now slaked by 'Action Movies', filled with death and maiming in slow-motion and replay....
Re: Is this a myth? - Gladius Hispaniensis - 12-31-2007
Thanks for the information gentlemen. Do you have any idea who the emperor mentioned by Heather would be?
Re: Is this a myth? - Carlton Bach - 12-31-2007
Quote:Thanks for the information gentlemen. Do you have any idea who the emperor mentioned by Heather would be?
In 388, that would have to be Theodosius I (unless one of his sons was already a Caesar by then and formally in charge). Which suggests that his 'Sarmatians' may well have been Goths, Gepids or Alans.
Re: Is this a myth? - Gladius Hispaniensis - 12-31-2007
Quote:Hmm that's interesting. I didn't know Goths and Sarmatians were confused with each other. Tacitus seems to imply they were somehow very different peoples.Gladius Hispaniensis:3ilgygb2 Wrote:Thanks for the information gentlemen. Do you have any idea who the emperor mentioned by Heather would be?
In 388, that would have to be Theodosius I (unless one of his sons was already a Caesar by then and formally in charge). Which suggests that his 'Sarmatians' may well have been Goths, Gepids or Alans.
Re: Is this a myth? - petrinus - 12-31-2007
and of course mr mike vic...maybe he styled himself a roman while encouraging dogfights damn fool he is and all these other shmucks that participate in that as well, lol. i say bring back the games though... death row inmates pay per view tv with profits paying for the penal system it could work out? i say put vic in there with his dogs see how cool he thinks it is then, ......."more molsom and appricots please, this next bout ought be most interesting yes. "
Re: Is this a myth? - D B Campbell - 12-31-2007
Quote:Peter Heather's "Fall of the Roman Empire" ... on page 184 he mentions an unnamed emperor who had some Sarmatians massacred in the Colosseum in 388 C.E.Interesting. In his Fall Of Rome article for the BBC Romans web site, he writes: "As late as 383 AD, captive barbarians were being fed to wild animals in the Colosseum, ..."
Does he give an ancient source in his book?
Re: Is this a myth? - Carlton Bach - 12-31-2007
Quote:Carlton Bach:76sesqsm Wrote:Hmm that's interesting. I didn't know Goths and Sarmatians were confused with each other. Tacitus seems to imply they were somehow very different peoples.Gladius Hispaniensis:76sesqsm Wrote:Thanks for the information gentlemen. Do you have any idea who the emperor mentioned by Heather would be?
In 388, that would have to be Theodosius I (unless one of his sons was already a Caesar by then and formally in charge). Which suggests that his 'Sarmatians' may well have been Goths, Gepids or Alans.
I don't think it was confusion. Many ancient writers used traditional terms to refer to peoples of their time. The Greek classical scheme would call Northwestern barbariuans 'Celts', Northeastern ones 'Scythians' and Eastern ones 'Persians' or 'Medes'. The peoples of the South Russian and Hungarian steppes in 388 AFAIR would have been Goths, Alans and Huns, no longer Sarmatians, but they would have looked quite similar to the eye of a Greco-Roman observer.
Re: Is this a myth? - D B Campbell - 12-31-2007
Posted: Mon 31 Dec 2007, 11:51
Wow, Volker -- snap!
Re: Is this a myth? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-31-2007
Thats what I was thinking, but you guys put it so much more eloquently (intelligently too).... :roll:
Re: Is this a myth? - john m roberts - 12-31-2007
Let's not confuse the suppression of the gladiatorial combats with suppression of "the games." The Christian clergy protested the gladiator fights because of their paganism, not because of their cruelty (a concept barely recognized in the ancient world.) Gladiators and their combats had an association with resurrection that Christian authorities insisted belonged to Christ alone, though the Christian public were much more reluctant to part with the beloved combats. Once the gladiators were suppressed for good, the victims in the arena became criminals, POWs and, above all, heretics. If anything, the shows under the Christian emperors became bloodier and more lethal than ever, because everyone who went into the arena died. At least gladiators stood a good chance of leaving the arena alive.
Re: Is this a myth? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-31-2007
Well I was just reading a translation about the later empire in another thread, and i would say they were pointlessly cruel, worse perhaps than even Caligula or Nero....just psychotic.......
hock: Give me Caesar any day! :!: