+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Greek Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War (/showthread.php?tid=10777)
Pages:
1
2
Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Aryaman2 - 10-23-2007
Polybius 3.53 calls in that passage the Carthaginian infantry "hoplites", what kind of infantry would be that?
Besides I would like to know, any of the Grrek cities of Italy wouls still field hoplites at that time? How would be them equipped?
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - hoplite14gr - 10-23-2007
The Italiotic Greeks under the influence of Pyrros statred converting hoplites to pikes with Tarrentum probably being the fisrt but the process was cut short after their capitulation to the Romans.
Carthagenians had a nasty surprise facing Pyrros pikemen in Sicely although they probably were aware of Ptolemaic pikemen.
Some people believe that Hanibal's "Liby-Phoinician" infantry were pikemens although I am not fully convinced.
Kind regards
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Aryaman2 - 10-23-2007
So, Stefanos, no clue what Polybius could mean here by hoplites?
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Gaius Julius Caesar - 10-23-2007
Quite possibly, they adopted/hired as mercenairies hoplites from the greek areas under their influence. It was happening in previous times under Persia, why not Carthage? :?
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Aryaman2 - 10-23-2007
Quote:Quite possibly, they adopted/hired as mercenairies hoplites from the greek areas under their influence. It was happening in previous times under Persia, why not Carthage? :?Ok, but then, what would be the equipment of those Hoplites, Iphicrates style?
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - hoplite14gr - 10-23-2007
I believe that Cyreanicans would very probably be pikemen.
Greek colonist generally neglected their military duties and skills and relied a lot on mercenaries. Most mercenaries were peltasts ("Iphikratians" are a propability then).
It is a possibility that hired pikemen would convert to spearmen like the hellenistic hypaspists if there were not enough to form a decent pike block.
Kind regards
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - PMBardunias - 10-23-2007
Quote:Ok, but then, what would be the equipment of those Hoplites, Iphicrates style?
Did Iphicratids outlast Iphicratus? I know of no references to support that.
The mercenary hoplites of the 3rd century were hoplites with Aspis and Dory. The greeks had only slowly been switching to sarissaphoroi since the middel of that century. Except for the Spartans, for whom we can date the conversion of some of their forces to Cleomenes III in the 220s, most greeks went through a stage where they were armed as Thureophoroi, spear and long scutum-type shield, before taking up the sarissa. The Acheans didn't convert until the 2nd century.
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Matthew Amt - 10-23-2007
Wouldn't Greek writers still just be using the term "hoplite" to mean "armed man"? It doesn't necessarily imply anything about the details of the equipment. And yes, it is far from clear that Hannibal's Carthaginian troops were pikemen. Here, try this thread:
http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/viewtopic.p ... eff4bfe23f
Valete,
Matthew
Carthaginian troops - Paullus Scipio - 10-23-2007
Matthew Amt said:-
Quote:Wouldn't Greek writers still just be using the term "hoplite" to mean "armed man"? It doesn't necessarily imply anything about the details of the equipment. And yes, it is far from clear that Hannibal's Carthaginian troops were pikemen.
Almost certainly, Polybius is using 'hoplite' in the general sense of 'heavy infantry' here, and in every translation of Polybius I can find, this is how it is translated - bear in mind that the Infantry here consist of Spaniards, Gauls and Africans (he is crossing the Alps) and he hasn't reached Italy yet to add allied Greek/Italiot citizens to the army !
"far from clear" is a bit of an understatement ! The longcophoroi as stated many times were NOT 'pikemen', despite the mistranslation in the Loeb edition.....they were skirmishing light troops for a start !
Longchophoroi translates literally as 'longche- carriers', the longche being a short dual purpose throwing/thrusting spear. It was often carried in pairs and was the traditional weapon of Macedonian infantry warriors prior to the adoption of the sarissa (pike). The pike was only used for major Battles - for other fighting the -skirmishing, sieges etc the longche was retained. AFIK there is no evidence that any armies other than the Macedonians and their Successor armies, and Mainland Greeks ever armed their troops 'in the Macedonian fashion' i.e. adopted sarissas.
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-23-2007
"Λόγχη" at least in more modern times means just the blade of the spear,having nothing to do withe the lenght and usage of it.
Even today Greek foot soldiers are called "oplites",and this is normal as they carry a gun("όπλον").
Xairete
Giannis
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Aryaman2 - 10-23-2007
Quote:Ok, then a greek hoplite of the 2nd Punic War era would be similar to the classic hoplite?Quote:Ok, but then, what would be the equipment of those Hoplites, Iphicrates style?
Did Iphicratids outlast Iphicratus? I know of no references to support that.
The mercenary hoplites of the 3rd century were hoplites with Aspis and Dory. The greeks had only slowly been switching to sarissaphoroi since the middel of that century. Except for the Spartans, for whom we can date the conversion of some of their forces to Cleomenes III in the 220s, most greeks went through a stage where they were armed as Thureophoroi, spear and long scutum-type shield, before taking up the sarissa. The Acheans didn't convert until the 2nd century.
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - PMBardunias - 10-23-2007
Quote:Ok, then a greek hoplite of the 2nd Punic War era would be similar to the classic hoplite?
Well, this might depend on the author. Polybious seems capable of discerniing a greek hoplite from a thureophoroi. Are the group of mercenaries you are interested in specifically called "hoplites"? The common term for greek mercenaries, misthophoroi, does not equal hoplite, but may refer to thureophoroi as well.
So it may depend on your author and more on the translation.
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Giannis K. Hoplite - 10-23-2007
Misthoforos-as a side note- means the one "bearing sallary"
Re: Hoplites in the 2nd Punic War - Aryaman2 - 10-23-2007
My interest is to know in the 2nd Punic War there would still be hoplites of some kind. I was thinking of Poeni citizen recruits, or the Greek citizens that joined Hannibal, for instance.
Hoplites in second Punic war - Paullus Scipio - 10-23-2007
Greek citizens of some city-states were still traditional 'Hoplites' as Paul B said. Others were Thureophoroi, and others still 'Macedonian'(i.e. sarissa armed) Hoplites. What the citizens of the Italian-Greek cities were armed as I cannot say......
The Carthaginian citizen force seems to have disappeared after the 'truceless war' which followed the first Punic War..........