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+--- Thread: Legati and lictores (/showthread.php?tid=10345)
Legati and lictores - Lucius Poblius - 09-01-2007
I have a (hopefully
Did all legati have lictores, or only those which were also governors of provinces?
Re: Legati and lictores - D B Campbell - 09-01-2007
Quote:Did all legati have lictores ..?The allocation of lictors is linked to the holding of imperium, so it only applied to governors (or magistrates in Rome).
Cassius Dio (53.13) tells us that the governor of an imperial province (i.e. a legatus Augusti pro praetore) was entitled to five lictors.
Re: Legati and lictores - Lucius Poblius - 09-02-2007
Thanks for the answer, that's what I thought. I just saw this paragraph on livius.org and it made me wonder:
Quote:Other persons entitled to a lictor were the Vestal Virgins (although this was technical not an ordinary lictor, but a lictor curiatus), and the governors of the provinces (proconsuls and propraetors), who had six bodyguards. The commanders of the legions were surrounded by five lictors, indicating that they were subordinate to the governors. Finally, in Egypt, the sacred bull Apis was protected by a lictor.
Re: Legati and lictores - Gaius Julius Caesar - 09-02-2007
Some persons decided they needed lictores on their own account, did they not? Oversteping the line of decency, so to speak...?
Re: Legati and lictores - Jona Lendering - 09-02-2007
Quote:Thanks for the answer, that's what I thought. I just saw this paragraph on livius.org and it made me wonder:As far as I know, nobody knows for certain how many lictors a legatus legionis had. However, there is much logic in the following steps.
Livius.org:2faporle Wrote:Other persons entitled to a lictor were the Vestal Virgins (although this was technical not an ordinary lictor, but a lictor curiatus), and the governors of the provinces (proconsuls and propraetors), who had six bodyguards. The commanders of the legions were surrounded by five lictors, indicating that they were subordinate to the governors. Finally, in Egypt, the sacred bull Apis was protected by a lictor.
The evidence for commander's five lictors is the rank of the man: legatus. Officially, an army was commanded by a consul (12 lictores), proconsul (6 lictores), praetor, or propraetor. The man held "imperium" in a "provincia", which originally just means "theater of operations". When the Republic changed into an Empire, "provincia" became province, and "proconsul" became "governor".
Now, a proconsul always had had a right to appoint legati, sub-commanders. Pompey was the first one to use sub-commanders as governors. So, the offices of legatus legionis and legatus provinciae were originally the same.
If the legatus provinciae was supposed to have five lictores (one less than the proconsul he was serving), then it is likely that the legatus provinciae was also entitled to five.
I wrote that article pretty long ago (1999?); I remember the steps summarized above, but can no longer find where I read this. But reconsidering the steps, I think it is plausible.
**
Perhaps it is interesting to know that my website started with three still popular articles (Herodotus, Hannibal, Caesar) for a failed project to create an internet encyclopedia. After that, for years articles were created from what I was reading. It was only much more recently that I realized that students used my website as source for papers (mens sana qui mal y pense) and decided to refer to modern literature. As a result, there is information on the website that is probably correct -or as best as my books- but that sometimes surprises me too, because I do not remember its origin! :wink:
Legate\'s lictors? - D B Campbell - 10-24-2007
Quote:As far as I know, nobody knows for certain how many lictors a legatus legionis had.I was just browsing von Domaszewski, and thought it might be interesting to list his version of the officium of a consular legate:
- 1 centurion as princeps praetorii
3 cornicularii (assisted by adiutores)
3 commentarienses (assisted by adiutores)
10 speculatores per legion
60 beneficiarii
numerous minor grade scribae, librarii, stratores, ...
numerous pedites and equites singulares
(I don't remember Pliny mentioning lictors ...)
Re: Legati and lictores - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 10-24-2007
Ave,
I've read that The word lictor may be derived from the Latin verb ligare, which means "to bind". This is sometimes said to refer to the fasces they carried, which were a set of rods that were bound in the form of a bundle, and contained an ax.
The person carrying it was a bodyguard in ancient Rome, whose task it was to protect magistrates.
Here's an ancient Roman coin showing the lictores.
![[Image: lictor.jpg]](http://www.livius.org/a/1/romanempire/lictor.jpg)
An an ancient statue:
![[Image: lictor_sm.jpg]](http://www.vroma.org/images/mcmanus_images/lictor_sm.jpg)
Here's a reconstruction from Legion xxiv:
![[Image: fascesright500.jpg]](http://www.legionxxiv.org/fasces%20page/fascesright500.jpg)
Re: Legati and lictores - Hugh Fuller - 10-24-2007
Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't lictors civilians? As I understand it, they were not carried on the roles of any military organization but were part of thepersonal household f th eperson to whom they were assigned. That would remove them from the official guard level.
Re: Legati and lictores - Carlton Bach - 10-24-2007
Quote:Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't lictors civilians? As I understand it, they were not carried on the roles of any military organization but were part of thepersonal household f th eperson to whom they were assigned. That would remove them from the official guard level.
AFAIK they were sort of civil servants (as close as the Roman system had to, really), members of a formalised collegium whose duties were to the Republic and who served its magistrates. They certainly werenm't soldiers (couldn't be since their main function originally was *inside* the cirty boundaries), but aside from having crowd control tasks and enforcing the commands of their magistrates, I would not discount the straightforward practical capacity for violence of a bunch of Romans with sticks and axes.
Re: Legati and lictores - Hugh Fuller - 10-25-2007
Except that they did not carry the axes within the pomerium unless accompanying a Dictator. I would agree with you when they were used outside of Rome, but I am not so very certain inside Rome, especially when I consider the likes of Milo and Clodius and their gangs in the 1st Century BCE.
Re: Legati and lictores - D B Campbell - 04-14-2008
Quote:As far as I know, nobody knows for certain how many lictors a legatus legionis had.Did anyone ever turn up any evidence for this?
I was reminded of this thread when I re-read Frontinus, Strat. 4.1.28, just now.
Domitius Corbulo (as legatus Augusti pro praetore) directed his lictors to punish a praefectus equitum for neglecting his duties. Clearly, Nero's governors still had lictors.
But I am still skeptical whether legionary legates were allowed lictors.