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Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Hibernicus - 08-04-2007
The subject of coppicing was one that has been familiar to me for many decades but became one of greater interest when I started doing historical re-enactment...
Info
http://www.coppicing.com/index.html
and
http://www.coppice.org.uk/background.htm
and many many more.. I was surprised to see so many oprganizations in England that actively coppice for a variety of projects!
I've mentioned the use of coppicing as a possible source for pila shafts in a number of threads here at RAT. None of my resources in my own library specifically reference ancient sources and it wasn't until a few days ago when I was searching the Web for additional info that I came across a book that addresses the subject. "Trees and Timber in the Ancient Mediterranean World" by Russell Meiggs. My book dealer is currently seeking a copy for me!
There's one available online source about ancient coppicing. It's an a abridged version of "Trees and Timber in the Ancient Mediterranean World" by Russell Meiggs.
Meiggs quotes CATO in regard to coppicing. Boy, was I pleasantly surprised.
Check it out here:
http://www.odi.org.uk/fpeg/publications/rdfn/8/b.html
I'd like to know if anyone in the UK Roman community has explored the possibility of acquiring coppiced ash for pila shafts? .. or could?
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Matt Lukes - 08-04-2007
It's a pretty round-about way to have to locate such seemingly useful information- who'd initially think of farm forestry writings to find speicifics on coppicing? Sheesh :lol: Well good on the Russell Meiggs and on the UK FPEP for posting the book and a .pdf section of it. Good find Sean. All the ancient writers mention poles and most especially firewood- just regular stuff in the context of farmers being self-sufficient and larger land-owners having extra to sell to those who lack (it's all about maximizing resources). Certainly with the fuel requirements of any community something like coppicing would be quite advantageous.
As for determining any significant use of coppiced wood for weapon hafts, I guess you'd need a good number of original specimens and then a means of distinguishing coppiced wood from say, just the heartwood of a felled tree- clearly anything but heartwood would be obvious not coppice-source :wink: What would the advantages be for pila I though? For spears it's the strength at length, yes? But pila are very short so don't have the same needs or gain the same benefits from being essentially all heartwood.
And of course it'd be important to the argument whether or not weapon hafts are actually specifically mentioned by anyone. If not, it just remains a plausible theory- but that's certainly more than there was before you finally found a referece that at least mentions coppicing :wink:
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - sulla felix - 08-04-2007
Nice research Hibernicvs - most interesting about the lumber preparation for construction. Definitely looks like green timber was used in some cases. Much easier to work with!
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Hibernicus - 08-04-2007
We may never be able to learn if ash coppiced to pole diameters was used for pilum shafts. I do not have access to the reports regarding wood spear shafts in Roman finds. Do they even try to determine if the shafts were poles or splits?
We do know that coppiced wood was used for many things.. tool handles, poles, axles, even charcoal to list a few and for thousands of years. But, we may never know if the coppiced wood was grown to a specific pole size and used as such or if the coppiced trunks were grown to a larger diameter and then split with the various splits being used for a variety of purposes.
Heartwood is certainly preferable to sapwod which can be less desirable by the presence of knots.
A quick dash about the internet brings up a wealth of info regarding coppicing, farm forestry and woodland management especially in the UK, historic and modern. Wow! Many organizations, private, government and commercial actively coppicing. Some of the oldest tress in the UK are old coppiced specimens! I believe that some folk in Regia Angolorum grow their own willow withies!
Hey now there's a nice little long term project for The Lafe AD43 event in Arkansas. They have a nice wet meadow that might be ideal for withies!
One of my guys noted recently that if I as living in a more rural area we'd be harvesting our own wood for pilum shafts... he's right!. and for furca and dolabra handles and valli... I sure wish I had a reliable source of greenwood for splitting wood strips for making scutums! I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Robert - 08-04-2007
Salvete all!
Now, on trees and stuff, I can offer a few pointers.
First: "a means of distinguishing coppiced wood from say, just the heartwood of a felled tree"
The use of coppiced wood implies the cutting of 8 to 12 year growth to get a nice 2 by 2 without the bark/sapwood and long, straight sides. This will mean the rings of the wood more or less follow the cylindrical profile of the shaft or post. In heartwood, this will take the appearence of commercial lumber, a plane on both sides, showing rings spaced close together on the other two sides. Where the plane runs out of the shaft, it will be weaker, so look to the sides with the rings showing to ensure the grain runs true.
Second: The major advantage of the coppicing system is the well developed rootsystem of the tree. This will enable fast growth in the shoots which sprout up. This in turn will allow regular harvest and you can select the diameter needed before cutting rather then wresting it out of a full sized log.
Third: Did you know some hardwoods can also be coppiced? Oak coppices just fine! Slower grower, but the staves are magic. I rate ash as an intermediate, but it has great grain and flex, makes nice bows, too.
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Peroni - 08-04-2007
Quote:I'd like to know if anyone in the UK Roman community has explored the possibility of acquiring coppiced ash for pila shafts? .. or could?
It's definately possible. My father-in-law is in the timber export trade, mainly willow and ash for the cricket bat industry in India. I'll ask.
Back 2000 years ago, in Britannia, there was no need for coppicing! the great woods were full of ash, and as they are great at seeking the light they tended to grow straighter toward the canopy. Nice long straight poles!
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Matt Lukes - 08-04-2007
Quote:Back 2000 years ago, in Britannia, there was no need for coppicing! the great woods were full of ash, and as they are great at seeking the light they tended to grow straighter toward the canopy. Nice long straight poles!
Right, well the idea is clearly that it's a very practical practice in long-occupied areas such as the Italian peninsula. Certainly it requires long-term worked land as well or at least an area that'll be tended for a decade or more. So weapons hafting comint OUT of Italia might have been coppiced for reasons of practicality more than suitability, but those made where a give legion was stationed or campaigning hardly seem likely to have been more than just from felled trees- goodness knows an army would need enough of those for building, firewood, charcoal, etc. That's always been my issue with the idea of coppiced hafts- there just seems to have been no need since the forests were FULL of trees and coppicing's main reason for being is land management, not production of proper spear hafts :wink:
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Tarbicus - 08-04-2007
Quote:The fact is you can't make properly functional spearshafts any other way than by coppicing. Lots of work has been done on prehistoric woodmanship in Britain, particularly on the tons of Bronze Age stuff from the Somerset Levels, where it is clear that they knew as much then as we do now about selection by type and form. The structure of a coppiced pole is so different from a dowel produced by machining a piece of lumber, because it employs both the xylem (inner) and phloem (outer) components of the wood and has all the structural benefits of being a tree in miniature. Thus there is no way that the Romans were not going to use coppicing to make spear shafts. There are certain 'givens' in woodmanship that are going to hold true throughout time, just as most Roman tools look like the modern ones.http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... 847#101847
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/w ... page08.htm
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Robert - 08-04-2007
Salve Matt!
I will disagree with you there, as the Romans did not move into virgin territory or primeval forest. Large parts of Europe were settled by Iron age people and we know they did use land-management techniques such as clipped hedges as cattle boundaries, Celtic fields and burning charcoal for their furnaces and having firewood at hand near their settlements. In fact, even Caesar comments on this. Coppicing as a agricultural technique was around way before the Romans decided on their little outing and conquered most of Europe as we know it along the way. It would be a major mistake underestimating the level of workmanship of the locals, even though on a grand building scale they never even got close to the achievements of the Roman empire. Making a spearshaft from a felled tree is a lot more work then starting of with a reasonably straight coppiced pole, I can assure you.
I recently read a book where one of the characters is quoted saying "History is propaganda written by the victors". Bit cynical, but worth taking into account when dealing with written "facts".
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - brennivs - tony drake - 08-04-2007
Hibernicvs I use a medieval coppice for my shafts,near Bishop Auckland County Durham,also our Ballista were made from trees from woodland my late friend managed for the forestry comission Ewe, Oak, Ash ect it is a facinating subject. I enjoy Autumn for my annual rummage for shafts.
Regards Brennivs
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Hibernicus - 08-05-2007
Brennius, I am not an envious person by nature but perhaps you will allow just one wee twinge of it?
It is good to read that some are using coppiced ash and from such an old source, how bloody brilliant!
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - brennivs - tony drake - 08-05-2007
Yes I agree it was origonaly a hazel coppice ,but as you can imagine it has growen wild but our seasonal rummage keeps it going.
Regards Brennivs
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - scythius - 08-05-2007
Another advantage of the use of coppiced wood is ease of processing, as there is less stock that needs to be removed
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Matt Lukes - 08-06-2007
Quote:Salve Matt!
I will disagree with you there, as the Romans did not move into virgin territory or primeval forest. Large parts of Europe were settled by Iron age people and we know they did use land-management techniques such as clipped hedges as cattle boundaries, Celtic fields and burning charcoal for their furnaces and having firewood at hand near their settlements. In fact, even Caesar comments on this. Coppicing as a agricultural technique was around way before the Romans decided on their little outing and conquered most of Europe as we know it along the way. It would be a major mistake underestimating the level of workmanship of the locals, even though on a grand building scale they never even got close to the achievements of the Roman empire. Making a spearshaft from a felled tree is a lot more work then starting of with a reasonably straight coppiced pole, I can assure you.
I recently read a book where one of the characters is quoted saying "History is propaganda written by the victors". Bit cynical, but worth taking into account when dealing with written "facts".
hock: You don't agree that an army in the field could have made do with trees they felled, and clearly would have had to for all their other needs to also make any required weapon hafts as well? Are you actually suggesting that more of western Europe was populated and had managed land than not 2000 years ago? Alesia was hardly a tiny place so would have had at least a typical amount of managed land around it locally, yes? Caesar found enough wood at hand to build some 25 miles of walls and towers for his circumvallations, and what about the bridge over the Rhenus? Clearly enough forest about for that. Iron Age peoples were around to be sure, but hardly in the density that would mean the Romans wouldn't have had HUGE amounts of distance through unmanaged land. I can't believe for a second that there wasn't vastly more virgin forest in western Europe than cleared, managed land- not 2000 years ago.
I also never said anything about the locals or their possible use of coppicing- but clearly the Romans couldn't have nor would have depended on it.
"I know we need a few thousand pila Varus, but it's okay, I'm pretty sure the Celtae in this area know about coppicing and I'm sure that when we get to the next few hundred farms we'll find enough 'proper' wood for them" :lol: Somehow I don't think so :wink:
Re: Coppicing trees for spear shafts and other tools - Tarbicus - 08-06-2007
Given the barbarian usual weapon of choice was a spear, surely there would have been plenty of coppiced areas around, otherwise how would they supply themselves? Add to that the need for tool shafts for farming the Romans probably had no problem acquiring the stuff when they entered a territory, just as they had no problem acquiring grain, etc. It wouldn't need vast tracts of acreage that would compare to deforestation in the Amazon today, but, given the small populations of both natives and legions, quite the opposite.