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Re: thoughts on Formations and such - RUBICON - 10-29-2006
"Conjecturaly, I don't see why a visual order couldn't be also shouted by the men and repeated with a cornu, or any variation thereof. Better safe than sorry and it doesn't require any effort."
I agree.
In the midst of battle, instruction to give up ground, advance, reform...these instructions though may have been repeated & shouted to reinforce the message incase you didnt hear it while someloud mouth german barbarian was growling in your face andtrying to knock your helmet off ( with your head), I would think would have been initially sounded by a trumpet, supported visually and spread in close ranks by a whistle or shouting.
think we've done a full circle on thi stopic?
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Robert Vermaat - 10-29-2006
Quote:I discovered this tonight. I would be interested in anyone s thought and if Vegetius ideas are what are practiced today by re enactors.No, most Late Romans are following the Strategicon (Maurice) rather than Vegetius.
The description of officers, signifers/etc. and the heaviest armour fighting in the front ranks is also why I have problem with ranks rotation (also discussed in this thread), because how can you rotate a) the officers etc and b) how can you rotate the heavy armoured men for lesser armoured ones?
Quote:Tarbicus:5mmahtqi Wrote:Conjecturaly, I don't see why a visual order couldn't be also shouted by the men and repeated with a cornu, or any variation thereof. Better safe than sorry and it doesn't require any effort.I agree.
In the midst of battle, instruction to give up ground, advance, reform... these instructions though may have been repeated & shouted to reinforce the message incase you didnt hear it while some loud mouth German barbarian was growling in your face and trying to knock your helmet off (with your head), I would think would have been initially sounded by a trumpet, supported visually and spread in close ranks by a whistle or shouting.
Yes, I think so too. It makes no sense to rely on visual signs only.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - M. Demetrius - 10-29-2006
The standard bearer would not be the one to initiate the order, though, so the signal to do or not to do would have to be sent to him, and presumably, he would not be facing back to the officers on the hill -- We just don't know.
I suspect it's the same reason as what tunic color, particular sized hole for a scutum boss, etc., and a bunch of simple answers like that nobody wrote down...they believed Rome would always stand, so everybody knew already. All you had to do was look out in the street to see tunic color, so why write it down?
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Robert Vermaat - 10-29-2006
Quote:The standard bearer would not be the one to initiate the order, though, so the signal to do or not to do would have to be sent to him, and presumably, he would not be facing back to the officers on the hill -- We just don't know.
Well, if Caesar said that after the batle initiated, it was out of his hands - I suppose that the officers on the hill had not much to do after that. besides sending in the cavalry and the reserves, and attempting to turn around broken unit like Julian at Strassbourg?
I assume that the signal bearers were in touch with the officers in the front line, and maybe (since they did not fight in the very front line, just at the front), there were men who could look at other signals from the back?
Just a thought.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Velite - 10-29-2006
We don't forget that there were also the "tesserarii", or the messengers. Probably when the General desired a department made a complicated movement (difficult to transmit only with the sounds), he used the messenger that delivered the order written of the general to the officer or centurio of the interested department.
I also think so.
Valete
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Tarbicus - 10-29-2006
Quote:Ah, but do we actually know that the standard bearer did not initiate the commands during the heat of battle? Don't forget that even the most senior commanders were not able to micro-manage a battle, so is it possible that this was a similar case at a lower level? We make great assumptions based on our more modern experiences, but consider that perhaps there were standard procedures in given situations that the centurion would brief/train the signifer in. For instance, if the centurion died was the standard procedure for the optio to be signalled to take his position, or for the century to fall back to regroup? If the centre was crumbling it may have been a given for the signifer to warn of this with his standard, and action could be taken by the men without the need for a direct order from the centurion. Provided a clear brief is given beforehand in anticipation of certain known and possible events, there's no reason the signifer could not take control of the movement of the century, and there's no reason why a centurion would be unable to anticipate pretty much any event that could happen in the battlefield.M. Demetrius:2r4vxwh1 Wrote:The standard bearer would not be the one to initiate the order, though, so the signal to do or not to do would have to be sent to him, and presumably, he would not be facing back to the officers on the hill -- We just don't know.
Well, if Caesar said that after the batle initiated, it was out of his hands - I suppose that the officers on the hill had not much to do after that. besides sending in the cavalry and the reserves, and attempting to turn around broken unit like Julian at Strassbourg?
I assume that the signal bearers were in touch with the officers in the front line, and maybe (since they did not fight in the very front line, just at the front), there were men who could look at other signals from the back?
Just a thought.
With the centurion at the front corner he could manouevre the men still, simply by moving; the men near him would move that way also, the men near them would follow, etc. Once this was seen by the signifer (who would be constantly keeping his eye on the centurion's position) he could then formalise that by giving a signal to the cornicen at the rear, the cornicen blows the cornu to alert the century to a command, the signifer gestures with the standard and everyone just does what they've done in training a zillion times. The duty then of the 2nd or 3rd rank may be to make sure that, verbally and with a slap on the back, the men blind to this know what's happening if they are engaged in combat.
Pure conjecture, but what the hell. It's all easier if the cornicen and signifer are right behind the centurio, but there seem to be a lot of variations on where they all stood.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Velite - 10-29-2006
Yours are conjectures, but very valid.
We know wery well that the training and the experience of the legionaries, of centurios, of optiones and of vexillifers it was as much and such that could take in hand the situation and to direct them the operations, in that agitated moments.
To Cinocefale the victory for the Romans is owed to the manoeuvre of Tribuno, that conducted some cohorts behind the enemies. From the story of Livio, for example, we can read that nobody had they order nothing but him in that situation he decided (in base to his experience) had to operate in that way.
In so many other cases we can read that the experience of the legionaries was such that they could keep on fighting even if all of their centuriones were killed.
Then the General and his legato were important, but they were important also the other official, that autonomously enough acted.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - M. Demetrius - 10-29-2006
Quote:Well, if Caesar said that after the batle initiated, it was out of his hands - I suppose that the officers on the hill had not much to do after that.
Do we think then, that when Caesar said the battle was out of his hands, that he meant he could go and take a nap? I don't think that at all. I rather suspect that what he meant was, once the battle was begun, the outcome would be unknown in many if not most instances. Strange things happen...a group of brave men may break and rout. A single cohort of Caesar's men turned Pompey's cavalry back into the infantry, and disorganized that flank. A group being pushed back could not know for certain that the entire enemy line was being pushed, or if they were being drawn into an encircling tactic.
A man in the front, second or last line could only be aware of what was in his immediate area. He could have no clear idea of what was going on at the flanks, behind the enemy lines, etc. Dust and other soldiers in the way would make that impossible.
However the orders were communicated, they'd have to be called by someone a little remote from the battle with a view of what the Big Picture was, so as to make some kind of decision about what to do next. I'm only speaking from theory, of course, I have never commanded a huge battle like that.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Tarbicus - 10-29-2006
All true, and I don't think Caesar went to catch up on some shut-eye. The only way for him to have a physical overview though would be if he were on a high hill overlooking the whole thing. 'Runners' bringing in reports would help get an idea of the overall situation, but it's still not the most reliable means for accuracy. When it comes to cohort placement and when the cavalry should get stuck in, I don't see why not, but no way would he be trying to make a century move to a particular place IMHO, which would be down to the tribunes at the highest level, but more likely the centurions. The times when Caesar does get actively involved in person are when the plan is about to go completely pear-shaped, but opportunities seem to be grabbed by the men at the front who can see an advantage which the commanders can't, and that's one of the things that makes me think they had for more control over the battle's outcome. The most important attribute that Caesar seems to admire in his legions is virtus, which coupled with his apparent brilliance in being able to visualise what could happen that day and his obvious ability to communicate a well thought out plan are what made him so successful in the field. He also seems to have been very canny at knowing when the men were likely not to be 'in the mood' for it, in which case he would probably make sure the army wasn't fielded that day.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - RUBICON - 10-29-2006
I thought, if you read Caesars accounts of his battles that he was always positioned behind the front line, moving along those lines where he could watch the battle. In this case he would have had messengers to alert those who needed to be told.
Also, in his accounts,the Centurions dropped like flies in battle being exposed as they were, therefore they may have been privy to the overall battle plan but once they fell, i assumed messengers ran back and forth to let the leader know. In poor situations, such as Varus defeat, Marcus Aius expresses how even teh messengers didnt fare too well, so I imagine that during the heat of battle and its uncertainties, discipline, tight formations, and teh ability to communicate dictated the success or failure of a battle.
My guess is, in particular with Caesar, who had many notetakers with him accounting his travels, they would have watched from the hill, writing down the battle to keep as a record. Im sure Caesar probab;y re wrote them to make them sound even more spectacular as is the case, with his with his thoughts and battle accounts.
it woudl have been suicide for a century to move out of formation because a gap had formed in th eenemy, even though the acting Centurion thought it was a good idea, without knowing he had support of the cavalry and or auxillaries. In this instance, he would have been commanded to make that movement knowing he woudl have the backup and or knowing the next century or line of men would advance to block the hole he woudl be creating? Im sure even the centurions would have run around as they did yelling and shouting as we know they also "encouraged" lagging soldiers to move forward.
in final, the words of Marcus Aius, keep ringing in my head about the length of the legions when he was travelling towards his final days and he was commanded by Varus to keep moving forward to reach Arminius... he was concerned that the length of the army marching was long and exposed. obvioulsy why Arminius was able to cause so much damage to the flanks. The fact that it was muddy and also contained the baggage train as well, it bought home the expanse of what some 25,000 legionaires occupied and then how do you communicate down a line that long without messengers, and in this case, trumpet and this is where signals would have worked well.
All Im saying, 25,000 men whether in a train, or lineup for battle is a lot of men!
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Tarbicus - 10-29-2006
Quote:I thought, if you read Caesars accounts of his battles that he was always positioned behind the front line, moving along those lines where he could watch the battle. In this case he would have had messengers to alert those who needed to be told.Thanks. Time to re-read the books I think.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - RUBICON - 10-30-2006
Was it not caesar himself, when against Pompeiis armies who had the higher ground, watching his legionaires press backwards away from the sea of arrows "raining down upon them" broke through the front ranks, picking up a stray scutum and charged forward...amazingly surviving any missile" he couldnt have done this from up on a hill....?
" Caeasr who had spent all the day galloping alongs the lines, yelling encouagement to his men and following the rythyms of the desperate struggle...."
Caesar also made an encourgaing speech -probably several times as it would have been impossible to address the entire line simultaneously..."
Caesar called together the centurions - there were sixty in each of his legions...he wished to reassure them and concluded, irrespective of what the rest did, he intended to advance alone with just legio X...
just these short exerts show Caesar was there in the front line also backs up what you said...once the battle started it was difficult to control the entire legions.
Finally....
"Caesar had to do everything at the same time: to raise the standard, which was the signal to stand to arms, to sound the trumpet call which recalled the soldiers, to form the battle line, to adddress the soldiers and to give the signal for battle" Gallic Wars
"after addressing the Legio X, Caesaar hurried to the right wing where he saw his men hard pressed.....
" In battle, Caesar was very mobile, riding, ... there is no mention of his commanding on foot - along close behind the battle line to observe combat and respond accordingly... calling out to his centurions..."
these are quite confusing accounts..maybe why his memoirs were considered a bit exaggerated. Sometimes he said he was there fighting others aboard horseback?
Caesar certainly was there at the front line and this shows the many forms of communication.
Though only one general, surely due to his successes, others would have used and or learnt from these tactics.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Luca - 11-01-2006
When considering licterature as Caesar, we need always to think at the situation. I think that he could have exagerated something, yes, but probably there are many things that must be clarified considering reality and, overall, the way the battles were conducted in absence of of radio devices as in modern times.
As example we should consider that everytime an order is being accomplished during the fight in a battle, we need to understand:
1) if that order was already given before the battle;
2) if the unit that execute the order was involved in the first line fighting or anyway in a fighting;
3) in case of fighting which kind, because one thing is to receive a clash in the front line from a pressing horde of enemies, another case is to attempt a procation with cavarly or archers, very often far from the central position of the engagement.
This is to say that too many things are not clear and I believe that when a change order was given it could be received only by soldiers not 100% involved in a man-to-man fight.
Just to make an example to Velite I tell an example that involves Ars Dimicandi, but the same situation was replied many many times in other "battles". In a fight, years ago, I was together with Dario Battaglia in the second row of fighting, he was at my next on the right at 30 cm. During the battle I saw something that required his immediate attention, so I turned my head and I shout to him something like: "hey Dario, look there!" But he didn't hear me because too concentrated to follow the fighting companions. So I shouted a second time: nothing, Dario was too much concentraded. The only way to have his attention was to take him and force him to look at me with a bit "violence". I trongly doubt that any other sound signal could be heard when the concentration of the mind is so big and think that in a true combat your life is on the bet so you could be more and more concentrated.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Tarbicus - 11-01-2006
Thanks Luca. It sounds like every man needed a whistle! :?
Something else that keeps cropping up is it seems the formation, and how tight it was, probably depended on which enemy and their weapons. The Gauls, given their long swords, would have needed space in front of the Romans in order to physically use their swords, as well as a loose formation, so the enemy 'pressing' the Roman front line really doesn't seem to apply in many cases.
Re: thoughts on Formations and such - Luca - 11-01-2006
you are right.
But the same can be applied for different reasons also to romans, as mentioned in the first part of the discussion.
"Density" is actually a problem, and I believe we don't have enough information to be sure of something. Also the sources are telling us all and its opposite....