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+--- Thread: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? (/showthread.php?tid=8876)
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - RUBICON - 04-04-2007
In reply to some of the suggestions & as a horse owner & Police horse training assisiatnt, even the best trained horses ie police & riot horses are not used to break down a defences but more to intimidate and hopefully repel and disrupt a line. Anadvancing line of calvary would render the most battle ready warrior a little scared..remember a horse at full speed is travelling at 60km/hr!
Anyway I would think that a horse would not run into a solid wall of shields! even horses have a sense of self preservation. All the kicking in the world will not make a horse do anything! Plus pike men woudl easily repel advancing horses.
I think as discussed the calvary was used for protecting and attacking flanks, running down broken lines and or retreating soldiers- a one on one situation where the calvaryman had height and speed on his side. A mounted calvaryman in amongst a group of soldiers attacking from all sides would be easy prey. How easy it would be for a foot soldier to slice a horses rear leg, stab it or cut its throat while the calvaryman was swinging and stabbing down one side
A scared horse prancing around and kicking in fright would surely cause some damage but I think it would be so easy for a calvary rider to be cut down.
I still dont believe as HOLLYWOOD depicts that a calvary rider gets amongst a group of soldiers cutting them down with his swords.....horses are not that quick to turn specially when amongst a battlefield of enemy trying to kill you. A single rider amongst foot soldiers, no way. This depiction would surely be suicide?
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Tarbicus - 04-04-2007
Actually, I just remembered something I saw on TV a while ago. In the TV version of Spartacus that was made a few years ago, a horse actually jumped on top of, and into, a formed testudo. How did they get that horse to do it? It was a real horse, not CGI or two blokes in a pantomime costume :wink:
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - RUBICON - 04-04-2007
Ha Hat Tarbicus,
Movie horses are rare in deed. My best friend here in Australia is Heath Harris, movie trainer for Zorro, The Black Stallion..amazing what they can get horses to do..most famous are the Western Horses being tripped over with a trip wire.
Like that thread of a horse jumping a line of shields we all spoke about a few months back...careful training they wil do anything....I doubt the Romans had that expertise plus two....I dont think the enemy would have just sat there being impressed with "how the horse jumped!"
Those line of shields if the hrse was trained would just look like a wall or obstacle it had been trained to jump over....bet you if it suddenly moved it woudl be a different story!
Amazingly the scene from Alexander where the horse rears up to teh advancing War elephant.
The director says it was a real take....no cgi or special effects. They actually had two black horses.
Even when the elephant was coming down the black horse was still on its hindlegs stepping towards it....now thats some serious movie training and a BRAVE horse.
D D
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - L C Cinna - 04-04-2007
Quote:Ha Hat Tarbicus,
Like that thread of a horse jumping a line of shields we all spoke about a few months back...careful training they wil do anything....I doubt the Romans had that expertise plus two....I dont think the enemy would have just sat there being impressed with "how the horse jumped!"
Very interesting.Maybe you could ask your friend how long it takes to train a horse to do such things?
The Romans had their warhorses in special training camps for 3 years before they were issued to the troops and I don't think they really lacked expertise. I mean they knew what they needed, had those special camps for training and each cavalryman spent at least 20years with horses every day. I guess they must have had quite some knowledge and experience with horses.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - RUBICON - 04-04-2007
Cinna,
In my own showjumping experience, my horses jump almost anything. Most showjumping fences are quite elaborate and I could even think of one or two that would be similar to a line of shields. As for movie horses, I have seen him train some in a few months others have taken longer depending on what was involved.
he is lucky that he can choose the horse for teh job, he recently completed a movie where teh horse runs through a fire wall...glad i wasnt riding! So anything is impossible.
We do some training with the police force, teh course is long and it is more to see which horses will cope as opposed to those who are not brave or too nervy!
the longest part is teh process in selecting teh right horses for the job, then teh training is straightforward as teh horse has teh basics,,,ie intelligence and bravery.
I would imagine this too would be the case for teh Romans, though would they have had the luxury of numbers to pick and choose.
Some horses are brave others arent but it wouldnt take long to train a horse to canter down and jump a line of shields.
My top horse would do it now if I lined up a series of them, to him its just another colourful fence. BUT if they suddenly moved as he came to them he woudl nearly have a heart attack. Horses are so governed by instinct, and in such a case, there immediate response woudl be to stop and flee....flight and flee instinct!
I guess the roman training camps would be for breaking in and training the horses to get used to close formation marching, the noise and clammer of the battlefields, formations etc. Calvary drills etc
Horses are amazing but even the experienced police/riot horses can react to the noise and excitement of certain situations. The smell of death woudl also have played a part..horses are very sensitive to death & pain, lest we forget they are living breathing animals too.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 04-04-2007
Then again, you have Caesars fourth line of infantry at Pharsalus stopping the charge of Pompeys cavalry! Surprise has much to do with success, either way!
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - RUBICON - 04-04-2007
I agree Gaius,
Horses are too predictable, i cannot imagine any horse charging a closely formed defence line and in fact I think any horse would prop and think twice about advancing if confronted by such a sight.
I think that element of surprise would also cause any 'smart" calvary rider not to get to close as he would easily be cut down if confronted by a surprise attack of more defences.
So I think it confirms, the calvary was only effective if lines were broken or on the retreat, maybe the sight of a few hundred gallopin horses was more for show than effectiveness, hoping to create fear and confusion...one would only have to run at a horse waving your arms and they would stop in front of you and run shy away.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Robert Vermaat - 04-04-2007
Quote:Yes I agree. I have seen horses prepared to ride into infantry who are not armed with long weapons. One horse was out of control and easily split a formation. Another was ridden up to the infantry line, held in balance, then kicked on into the shield wall easily breaking it. But these are the exception, and the infantry were not trying to kill the horse!
Not trying to kill the horse and trying not to be injured themselves!
We did similar 'light training' (new to horse ánd shield wall), and we knew how to split before the horse went through us (below)!
I think that in a situation of battle, these horses would have had more trouble breaking up the formation.
![[Image: 2006archeon_batavi14.jpg]](http://www.fectio.org.uk/shows/2006archeon_batavi14.jpg)
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - S SEVERUS - 04-04-2007
Wasn't the cavalry always posted on the flanks of the roman battle line?
So the primary function must have been to defeat the opposite cavalry, to protect the flanks, to assault the flanks,... and not to directly assault the infantry battle line?
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Tarbicus - 04-04-2007
A thing we regularly do on RAT is take it to a hypothetical Roman vs. Roman scenario. But the primary purpose of the Roman army was to fight other nations.
So, bearing that in mind, Gallic, Celtic and Germanic foot warriors needing space to use their weapons with, didn't really stand a chance, no? They had to fight in open order to swing their swords. Spears, maybe another story.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - L C Cinna - 04-04-2007
Well I can just point at the 2 accounts from Iosephus again I posted on page 1. Imho it describes the actions of Roman cavalry against loose "formations" very well.
Close order trained infantry is another question. but if you imagine you are engaged with some legionaries in front of you and you have an ala of approx 500 horse coming in from the flanks throwing javelins at you constantly while being too fast for you to do anything against them.
I guess some 2000 javelins thrown at you will seriously disrupt coherence of a formation or at least force some people to turn and face towards the cavalry to protect the rest with their shields. This will cause your formation to lose it's forward pressure and makes it easier for the legionaries to break it. So whether the javelins will break the formation or the infantry from the front will do so after the unit was disturbed by the javelins. Now the cavalry can draw swords and rush in.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Robert Vermaat - 04-04-2007
Quote: A thing we regularly do on RAT is take it to a hypothetical Roman vs. Roman scenario. But the primary purpose of the Roman army was to fight other nations.Purpose, indeed, but i've read that the Roman army spent more time fighting Romans than other nations/tribes.
Quote:So, bearing that in mind, Gallic, Celtic and Germanic foot warriors needing space to use their weapons with, didn't really stand a chance, no? They had to fight in open order to swing their swords. Spears, maybe another story.That's a different discussion - we Late Romans still debate how much space there should be between each man in the same line, and how much to the man behind him (them all swinging the long spatha). Nevertheless, the Late Roman formation seems to have been more tight than we'd imagine.
Do we actually know how tight or loose a Gallic/Germanic formation was?
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Tarbicus - 04-04-2007
Quote:You're gonna have to prove that, sorry :wink: I think it's biased towards late Empire, and completely discounting the early era where campaigns were more or less annual, give or take a few decades. If citizens had to serve twenty years before the age of forty-six, then they had to give them something to do when they turned up for service each year, surely? There was always some other city-state being a pest and in need of sorting out or putting in its place, and I don't think the spolia on the walls, or the required scars, were from Romans.Tarbicus:2m4h0mjs Wrote:A thing we regularly do on RAT is take it to a hypothetical Roman vs. Roman scenario. But the primary purpose of the Roman army was to fight other nations.Purpose, indeed, but i've read that the Roman army spent more time fighting Romans than other nations/tribes.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - L C Cinna - 04-04-2007
@Tarbicus:
About Germanics and close formation:
Caesar's battle against Ariovistus book I chapter LII
Quote:At Germani celeriter ex consvetvdine sva phalange facta impetvs gladiorvm excepervnt. Reperti svnt complvres nostri, qvi in phalangem insilirent et scvta manibvs revellerent et desvper vvlnerarent.
Quote:But the Germans, according to
their custom, rapidly forming a phalanx, sustained the attack of our
swords. There were found very many of our soldiers who leaped upon the
phalanx, and with their hands tore away the shields, and wounded the
enemy from above.
Re: what was the function of the Roman cavalry? - Tarbicus - 04-04-2007
Damn. My bad. :roll: