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+--- Thread: Star-signs! (/showthread.php?tid=5323)
Re: Star-signs! - Arthes - 04-30-2006
Quote:You do know that Alexander wasn't really descended from Herakles?Not if the Alexander Romance was true and he was the son of Nectanbo (although the Pharoahs were tradionally conceived by Sekhmet the lioness headed Goddess ...)....but he could still claim Achilles :wink:
Quote:But Commodus was, or at least his reincarnation.Who is Commodus's reincarnation :roll: :roll: ?
Quote:More confirmation that "star signs" are bollocksAre you a Taurus by any chance :lol: ? No - I see you are a Capricorn.....another stubbon sign - hehe
Regards
Arthes
Re: five sense worth - Ramesses II - 05-01-2006
Quote:I know you will not agree. But please do not try to rob the show and try to show us the way of what it means to keep an "open mind". Don't take advantage of Matt's experience and wisdom to pretend to quote him and say he makes sense. Your personal experiences and beliefs are simply that and they are not to be acritically accepted simply because you feel strongly about them. You are not the center of the universe! Please don't trying passing as the "wise" person and elevate yourself to the one that is going to close this topic, else I will keep challanging your being the best to judge what makes "most sense". I find it odd you complained "here we go again" when I jumped back in this pseudo-discussion.
Sorry if it seemed like that, I did not mean to do so. Seriously. I just say what I think, that's all.
Re: Star-signs! - Tarbicus - 05-02-2006
Quote:Are you a Taurus by any chance ? No - I see you are a Capricorn.....another stubbon sign - heheHence Taurus and Capricorn get on so well :wink:
Re: Star-signs! - Magnus - 05-02-2006
I find this type of conversation very interesting. I also truly believe that given the complexity of the human psyche (by ltself, not inlcuding any other factors), we are capable of feeling, believing almost anything.
One rule though: Beliefs, political and religious, spiritual and philosophical must NEVER supercede common sense.
So on that note, let me leave you with a few quotes and a picture of someone/thing I believe in:
[i]“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship.â€
Re: Star-signs! - Arthes - 05-02-2006
Greetings,
interestingly enough in the 2001 census, Jediism was recorded as the fourth largest recorded faith in England -
Christian: 72.0%
No religion: 14.8%
Chose not to respond: 7.7%
Muslim: 3.1%
Hindu: 1.1%
Jedi: 0.7%
and would have been the second largest in New Zealand.....but they would not count it.......which i would call religious discrimination!
Christian: 58.9%
No religion: 29.6% or Jedi
Object to answering: 6.9%
Buddhism: 1.2%
Hindu: 1.2%
As is usual when a new belief that opposes the establishment or established takes hold.....it is dismissed as a joke or something is wrong with it (from the 'other' point of view]...but why?
http://www.thejedi.org/
regards
Arthes
Re: Star-signs! - Magnus - 05-02-2006
Wow...well, i suppose principally there's nothing wrong with a Jedi religion...
common sense not good enough - Goffredo - 05-03-2006
The proposal is that there be One rule: "Beliefs, political and religious, spiritual and philosophical must NEVER supercede common sense."
I do not agree. Common sense can be terribly insufficient and give spectacularly wrong answers as has been shown many times in science and in good philosohpy. I fear common sense is bad also in other human affairs.
Jeff
Einstein used to say "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
metaphorical story - Goffredo - 05-03-2006
Over the years I have participated on RAT to a handful of discussions on science. Maybe I have already written about the following. Forgive me if I have.
This is a metaphor, among others, that I tell my physics students ever year. The idea is Feynman's. Very briefly:
Imagine you are the director of a Gambling Casino in Nevada in the 1950s when they were owned and run by the Mafia. You are in-charge of the Casino but the money is not yours! You are subject to the Mafia. Premise: everyone knows that in gambling, the house is favored so even if you are honest and do not trick the games, on the long run, over large numbers, the house makes huge profits. Great idea to make money honestly! So the scenario is this: it is an honest gambling casino, you are expected to run it honestly, and ultimately give explanations to someone that is expecting an average amount of profits and expects a certain amount of fluctuations (there are lucky winners that take big jack-pots away). In any case you are expected to give explanations.
One day a client starts a winning streak at black-jack. He keeps winning; he never loses. The croupier does the standard things such as change the deck of cards. The client keeps winning. What do you do? You might naively think the fellow is simply lucky, but you decide to change the croupier. Maybe they are on it together. The client keeps winning. You zoom in with hidden cameras and place undercover experienced croupiers, faking to be normal players, near by him to try to figure out how he cheats. But you uncover no tricks. You kindly invite the client to play another game, say roulette hoping that in the new game the odds will start acting against him. Some games are more house-biased. But incredibly the fellow not only happily accepts to change games but starts another incredible winning streak. You change roulette croupiers and even tables, finally rooms. No success. He keeps winning. You change yet another game and he keeps winning. How does he do it? You try your best, with all the expert help you can muster, to unmask him, catch him cheating,... The guys keeps winning. What is left for you to do? You are honest and can't change the rules or cheat to make hims lose. It is after all an honest Casino. You can't risk that the fellow or others catch YOU cheating. Your credibility as an honest Casino might not recover from the terrible blow. Clients would not return!!! You are running an even greater risk. Your credibility is at stake. In this metaphor you are risking your life if you are not credible. Give a unacceptable answer to the Mafia and you might end up being cut up into tiny pieces and shipped to different parts of the world or buried in cement.
Note that at any point you might have simply concluded that the client is simply lucky, or maybe he has paranormal powers and can mentally read the cards or even control the outcome of an honest random game. As you are in-charge, you are responsible for what you do and say and the Mafia will evaluate you very closely. Do you think they would accept the explanation that the fellow was "simply lucky"? Do you think they would accept the explanation that the fellow had paranormal powers? Maybe all the croupiers and experts you called in to help were actually on the deal, everyone except you! Sounds like paranoia doesn't it? Maybe the Mafia would accept that explanation? Maybe the Mafia might think that YOU are in it with the client! Maybe you are trying to rob them of their honest profits.
Where do you stop being "rational". Can you afford at any point to stop and give in to some explanation that suites you without being concerned that it might not convince someone else? How do you convince someone else that you have done everything possible and can indeed conclude that the fellow was lucky or had super-powers.
This is a metaphor on the rational ("scientific") approach to unexplained phenomena. Some people see the point, others may not see it, get distracted and argue about this or that detail. Then there is always someone that concludes that science is like the Mafia, just as he always suspected.
Ciao
Jeff
Re: Star-signs! - Peroni - 05-03-2006
Me? I'm an archer, Sagittarius
Optimistic and freedom-loving - Definately!
Jovial and good-humored - Most of the time
Honest and straightforward - That depends on the situation! :wink:
Intellectual and philosophical Blindly optimistic and careless - Hmmm :?
Irresponsible and superficial -???
hock: Tactless and restless - Restless yes, but I always think before speaking!
Regards,
Re: common sense not good enough - Dan Howard - 05-05-2006
Quote:I do not agree. Common sense can be terribly insufficient and give spectacularly wrong answers as has been shown many times in science and in good philosohpy. I fear common sense is bad also in other human affairs.
Common sense would tell you that the sun revolved around the earth. It requires a basic knowledge of physics and astronomy to know that it isn't true.
Re: Star-signs! - Tarbicus - 05-05-2006
Quote:One day a client starts a winning streak at black-jack. He keeps winning; he never loses.Not the best or fairest analogy as it wouldn't happen, or he would be cheating and the casino would have no problem in stopping him and banning him at least. They would have had common sense enough to do so. It's a pure fantasy situation that doesn't give the 'believers' in the thread (and I'm not one) a chance to argue.
Common sense is used to generally solve problems that are non-abstract and real, whereas philosophy is far more useful for solving theoretical and abstract problems. Wisdom versus intelligence, imho.
a chance to argue for believers - Goffredo - 05-05-2006
I find that there is surprisingly little a believer can argue about. They might say a lot and some are good at it, touching the hearts of humans, but they do not argue. How can a believer argue if simply robs the discussion of any chance precisely because he is a believer and believers do not want to weigh the uncertainties. A believer is certain, and hence will dismiss evidence that is against their emotionally charged beliefs while they admit "evidence" that they like. Anybody that questions the quality and quantity of their "evidence" is accused of being rational and/or scientific and of course everyone knows that "rationality is limited", that "science does not explain everything".
I am quite serious and stand by what I say when I say that what is funny (or tragic) is that the believers are those that are not being fair! They turn the cards on the table, refuse to follow any reasonable rules of discussion, and continuously avoid confrontation on any reasonable grounds.
The ectoplasm/ghost did not appear? Why of course it didn't because in the room there was someone with a bad attitude.
The phenomena did not manifest itself? Why of course it didn't because only a select few may have thay priviledge of seeing it.
The film did not record the phenomena? Why of course it didn't because the phenomena is supernatural (only natural things can affect a film).
A phenomena does not happen to you? It did to me. Believe me.
p.s. Would you have preferred a more "realistic" or typical story about marginal effects, statistically insignificant to a rational observer while too dear to the rigidly irrational one? Would you have preferred a story of shy effects, that do not manifest themselves if the observer is skeptical/hostile?
another story about purple rhinos with yellow stripes - Goffredo - 05-05-2006
Another story I tell. Do you prefer this one?
Behind my university here in Italy there are a series of unfriendly mountains and valleys, secluded. Someone claims that he discovered by accident a herd of rhinoceros with big yellow stripes. Big sensation! So helicopters fly to the area to try to film them. Nothing. Ah, but that it is because these rhinos heard the noisy helicopters and hid. All rhinos would run. These special rhinos are good at hiding. So an expedition is organized but nothing is found. Ah but this is because the rhinos were previously disturbed and already moved. No manure was found. Ah but that is because the manure of purple rhinos is known to decompose very fast, you can take the word of the by-now-famous discoverer. The expedition just didn't arrive in time. The expedition keeps looking for them but purple rhinos have excellent noses and can smell the hunters way in advance. The hunters then use special outfits, like astronauts, to avoid releasing body odors. But the purple rhinos, especially those with yellow stripes, have excellent hearing....
At what point do you stop looking for the strange herd of rhinos?
At what point do you call into question the credibility of person that claims he saw them. What evidence would you ask him to present? If he claimed that he has no real proof (his camera broke right when he was about to take a picture), but that he is honestly not lying, would you believe him? Maybe he was dreaming or had taken drugs and was hallucinating. Ah but then do you conclude they must certainly be magical rhinos or they live in a parallel universe, because drugs sharpen human senses, don't they?
Re: Star-signs! - Tarbicus - 05-06-2006
Quote:p.s. Would you have preferred a more "realistic" or typical story about marginal effects, statistically insignificant to a rational observer while too dear to the rigidily irrational one? Would you have preferred a story of shy effects, that do not manifest themselves if the observer is sceptical/hostile?Actually, yes! And don't change the subject.
wink: Quote:Behind my university here in Italy there are a series of unfriendly mountians and valleys, secluded. Someone claims that he discovered by accident a herd of rhinocerous with big yellow stripes. Big sensation! So helicopters fly to the area to try to film them. Nothing. Ah, but that it is because these rhinos heard the noisy helicopters and hid. All rhinos would run. These special rhinos are good at hiding. So an expedition is organized but nothing is found. Ah but this is because the rhinos were previously disturbed and already moved. No manure was found. Ah but that is because the manure of purple rhinos is known to decompose very fast, you can take the word of the by-now-famous discoverer. The expedition just didn't arrive in time. The expedition keeps looking for them but purple rhinos have excellent noses and can smell the hunters way in advance. The hunters then use special outfits, like astronauts, to avoid releasing body odors. But the purple rhinos, especially those with yellow stripes, have excellent hearing....
At what point do you stop looking for the strange herd of rhinos?
At what point do you call into question the credibility of person that claims he saw them. What evidence would you ask him to present? If he claimed that he has no real proof (his camera broke right when he was about to take a picture), but that he is honestly not lying, would you believe him? Maybe he was dreaming or had taken drugs and was hallucinating. Ah but then do you conclude they must certainly be magical rhinos or they live in a parallel universe, because drugs sharpen human senses, don't they?
ROFL! Common sense is now definitely confirmed as not being present among the Press :lol: But most people could have told me that anyway.
Re: Star-signs! - Dan Howard - 05-08-2006
Quote:ROFL! Common sense is now definitely confirmed as not being present among the Press :lol: But most people could have told me that anyway.Think about it from the media's point of view. All they are interested in is selling papers. The longer they can string out this story the more money they make. Whether it is true or not is irrelevant.