RomanArmyTalk
Pteruges - Printable Version

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Re: Pteruges - Theodosius the Great - 03-31-2006

Quote:[Image: Tetrarcas-1.jpg]

Incidentally, each pair of Tetrarchs have been clearly carved by a different person or team...

Is the same true about these ?

[Image: figure24.jpg]

Re: Pteruges - aitor iriarte - 03-31-2006

Travis,
Oh, there was no visible helmet on the statue and I should have realized it. :oops:
A really strange feature that neck flap... I had never noticed anything like that! Confusedhock:
The scabbard is interesting because it has the slider placed by the inside, while it is supposed to be always placed in sight, at the 'outer' side.

Theo,
The Venice Tetrarchs were originally two pairs and each pair was attached to a column, placed high, resting on a bracket.
The smaller and less elaborated pair at the Vatican are still attached to its column but there is only one pair preserved, AFAIK, and, therefore we cannot know for sure if there was another pair (very probable) or if it was chiselled by a different hand. 8)

Aitor

Re: Hold on there... - Theodosius the Great - 04-02-2006

Thanks, Aitor Smile

Quote:
Theodosius the Great:2ojvcqbl Wrote:The earliest possible example I've seen of an officer wearing a baldric is this one from Travis' website...

Yeah, they do occurr, but usually in a battle context (as seen here). Have you seen one of an officer wearing a baldric and sword just standing and posing, so to speak?

Found some more officers with scabbards. The first two come from Rhodes (which obviously aren't shown in a battle context.) The third one is from the Aemilia Basilica in Rome.
[Image: 27oldtownmuseum4.JPG][Image: rhodesstatue.jpg]
[Image: aemiliabasilica.jpg]

The second one is magnificent. It shows the parazonium scabbard more clearly than any other statue I've seen. It dates to the 3rd C. BC

Re: Pteruges - tlclark - 04-02-2006

The first one is definitely a late hellenistic one and is probably a bronze cuirass.

Look at the shoulder harnesses. They don't have the "jog" seen on most Roman cuirasses which is a hold-over from the linothorax.

You can see more like these here:

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... hens2a.jpg

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... gora3a.jpg

The first is from the Athens museum, the second is lying in the weeds behind the Hephaistion in the Agora, (sigh.)

Notice the pteruges. We have double rows, tongue pteruges (lappets), etc. No decoration, bronze cuirass, round neckline.

Aside from the muscled shape this armor has nothing in common with the musculata.

Notice how the shoulder harnesess are round and have scalloped edges. The harnesses on the musculata are completely different.

(Update: Incidentally, this is exactly the same type of harnesses used by HBO's Rome, which is wrong, wrong, wrong. All the republican examples have square or joggled edges. These harnesses are expressly Greek.)

Now look at your second image of the trophy from Rhodes. It looks like this Roman imperial example, also from the Athens museum.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... hens2a.jpg

I'm betting that one is hadrianic. Nearly all of the really ornate ones are.

Now compare the style of harnesses and pteruges on the trophy above with this image of a late hellenistic equestrian statue.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... nsdeta.jpg

It doesn't have the muscled shape, but all other features we associate with the musculata are there.

So we have two styles of pteruges, tongue or straight, in the greek period and the roman examples either emulate the kind from the linothorax or some combination of the two, but it's really much closer related to the linothorax.

The bronze cuirass and the linothorax are very clearly two separate traditions in Greek artifacts in art. In the Roman period, it's all one muddled mess. One wonders what the Greeks thought about all of this. Was this as weird as putting 18th C. Epaulets on WWII fatigues? Maybe. But the Romans obviously didn't care.

The musculata is really an odd duck, isn't it?

Re: Pteruges - Theodosius the Great - 04-02-2006

Yet another statue with two-tiered shoulders. CLICK HERE TO VIEW




...

Re: Pteruges - Caballo - 04-02-2006

A question:-
Are all the two tiered shoulders pteruges examples matched by two tiers at the waist? And if so, could this be an indication of one subarmalis being worn over another?

Cheers

Caballo

Re: Pteruges - tlclark - 04-03-2006

Quote:A question:-
Are all the two tiered shoulders pteruges examples matched by two tiers at the waist? And if so, could this be an indication of one subarmalis being worn over another?

I think so, or at least a subarmalis that has two layers. This jives with other evidence that I'm seeing.

Check out the padded armor thread here:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... &start=240

Re: Pteruges - tlclark - 05-18-2006

Ok, latest update on pteruges.

I have laid out all the materials for my subarmalis and I have the following data sheet on pteruges based on the figurative evidence.

Average number of pteruges per kilt, approx. 40-60 per layer, with an average of two layers.

Pteruge width is 1 - 1.5 inches, lengths is variable dependent on leg length, mine is about 20-22 inches from the waistline.

Shoulder pteruges have 20-30 each layer with an average of two layers. Average length - 8-10 inches, but they get longer during the antonine period.

About their construction.

They are cloth faced or woven.

The edges are banded with material and/or heavy stitching, usually two rows of stitching.

Fringe is most likely a part of an interior core, so the pteruges are laminated out of multiple layers of material (felt? linen? leather?)

So here's my plan. I am going to cut out four layers of heavy synthetic felt, in a square that's roughly 20 x 22 inches. Layer them on top of each other and sew them together about every inch, and then cut them out later, adding a layer of linen to each one and edging them in linen.

Re: Pteruges - Robert Vermaat - 05-18-2006

Quote:So here's my plan. I am going to cut out four layers of heavy synthetic felt, in a square that's roughly 20 x 22 inches. Layer them on top of each other and sew them together about every inch, and then cut them out later, adding a layer of linen to each one and edging them in linen.
Could you please take pictures every step of the way?

Re: Pteruges - tlclark - 05-18-2006

Quote:
tlclark:bvk245xw Wrote:So here's my plan. I am going to cut out four layers of heavy synthetic felt, in a square that's roughly 20 x 22 inches. Layer them on top of each other and sew them together about every inch, and then cut them out later, adding a layer of linen to each one and edging them in linen.
Could you please take pictures every step of the way?

Already planning on it!

I'm constructing the shoulder and kilt pteruges separately, even though my best guess is that they should be intergral to the subarmalis.

Travis

Re: Pteruges - caiusbeerquitius - 10-17-2006

I recently had the opportunity to take a closer look at the statue of Titus from Herculaneum. The pterges there are clearly textile.The flat surfaces are chiselled in a way to show a woven surface, on the rims the pterges have seams on each side. On the lower side the tassels emerge directly out of the pterges. In between is something that looks like a cardwoven band. Unfortunately I have no pic, maybe someone else has...
Also interesting is that they are not represented as being flexible, they appear to be quite stiff. Were they dipped into glue upside down, excluding the tassels, before they were attached?
The small round pterges at the rim of the armour show thin hinges, so these were most probably made from metal.

Re: Pteruges - caiusbeerquitius - 10-17-2006

Found a pic..:
[Image: DSC02862.jpg]

Re: Pteruges - caiusbeerquitius - 10-17-2006

...this would also explain the red-and-blue coloured pterges at the Augustus of Primaporta,:
[Image: 25-101NE7P0500.jpeg]
The Augsutus has alternate red and blue pterges.
You would then have:

Pterges I:
red weft
blue warp

Pterges II:
blue weft
blue warp

Maybe layered, which would explain the seams?

Just a few thoughts...

Re: Pteruges - Luca - 10-17-2006

right.
Textile is much more evident on these pics:
http://www.romanhideout.com/images/IT/N ... relius.asp

click on the one on the right.

Re: Pteruges - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 10-17-2006

Yes! And it can be seen a herringbone pattern, I thought that emperors or high officers pteruges were silk-covered layers of linen (not glued for softness), but it looks like tweed Confusedhock: ...

Valete,