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+--- Thread: Amazing pugio blade (/showthread.php?tid=9569)
Re: Amazing pugio blade - LVCIVS VVLPES - 07-01-2007
Steve,
the articles are only in German, the article on the Titelberg dagger is published in "JRMES 12/13 2001/2002 p75-84 "
the Oberaden dagger, its just the reflection of the spotlights that gives the silver color
yes, the color is a result of the etching with the alcoholic nitric acid to visualize the layers of steel and iron as explained on the first page by others , the use of an other acid formulation will give a different result as used by the Damast smiths to bring out the pattern in their work, where only the iron is etched
the last question is answered by Tony
an other interesting observation on the two blades is that
the Haltern blade is completely quench and tempered in oil, this give it a middle hardness and flexibility
the Oberaden blade has only the cutting edges quench in water what makes the edges hard and leave the core softer and flexible.
this means that the smiths new very well what they where doing
"Metallkundliche Untersuchungen an Klingen von zwei römischen Dolchen-D. Horstmann 1995"
Cheers
Luc
Re: Amazing pugio blade - stevesarak - 07-02-2007
Quote:Steve,
the articles are only in German, the article on the Titelberg dagger is published in "JRMES 12/13 2001/2002 p75-84 "
the Oberaden dagger, its just the reflection of the spotlights that gives the silver color
yes, the color is a result of the etching with the alcoholic nitric acid to visualize the layers of steel and iron as explained on the first page by others , the use of an other acid formulation will give a different result as used by the Damast smiths to bring out the pattern in their work, where only the iron is etched
the last question is answered by Tony
an other interesting observation on the two blades is that
the Haltern blade is completely quench and tempered in oil, this give it a middle hardness and flexibility
the Oberaden blade has only the cutting edges quench in water what makes the edges hard and leave the core softer and flexible.
this means that the smiths new very well what they where doing
"Metallkundliche Untersuchungen an Klingen von zwei römischen Dolchen-D. Horstmann 1995"
Cheers
Luc
Excellent, thanks.
Re: Amazing pugio blade - LVCIVS VVLPES - 08-30-2007
found this picture back ( Haltern Museum ), its one of the daggers that is tested as mentioned a bit higher
[img]
![[Image: lamellardamast.jpg]](http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o273/fox815/lamellardamast.jpg)
[/img]Cheers
Luc
Re: Amazing pugio blade - stevesarak - 08-31-2007
Quote:found this picture back ( Haltern Museum ), its one of the daggers that is tested as mentioned a bit higher
[img]
Cheers
Luc
Thanks
Pugio - jc02005 - 09-09-2007
The pugio was a small dagger used by Roman soldiers as a sidearm. It seems likely that the pugio was intended as an auxiliary or backup weapon, but it found many uses, especially as a utility knife. Officials of the empire took to wearing ornate daggers in the performance of their offices, and some would wear concealed daggers as a defense against contingencies. The dagger was a common weapon of assassination and suicide; for example, the conspirators who stabbed Julius Caesar used pugiones
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Magnus - 09-09-2007
Hey John, not sure the pugio is clearly defined as a sidearm. Techincally, the gladius would be more of a sidearm, since the pilum was the primary weapon of late republic and early imperial era legionarys.
I didn't know Imperial offices required the wearing of ornate pugiones...what book was that from? Do you still have it by chance?
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Jeroen Pelgrom - 09-09-2007
his text is from wiki.
see this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pugio
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Crispvs - 09-10-2007
Ahem... The pugio, with blades ranging in size between nine and fourteen inches, could hardly be called a 'small' dagger. Also (and could we get rid of this annoying factoid once and for all) the pugio is NOT (and can I repeat the word 'not' several more times?) a utility knife. It is utterly unsuited to such a role and in any case, the Romans had a good range of utility knives available to them and these are much more common finds on sites than pugios are.
As usual, the Wikipedia article has been written by someone who does not know very much about the subject he is writing about and contains erroneous information. It may also have been edited by people who knew even less than original writer about the subject.
I would re-write the article but I don't seem to be able to register with Wikipedia.
Crispvs
Re: Amazing pugio blade - caiusbeerquitius - 08-22-2008
I´d like to add two of the Augsburg and at least one of the Auerberg daggers to the collection of damascus / pattern pugios.
See:
Auerberg
Radomir Pleiner, Zur Schmiedetechnik im römerzeitlichen Bayern, in: Bayerische Vorgeschichtsblätter 35, 1970, 113-141 & tables 8-20.
and:
Augsburg
Wolfgang Hübener: Die römischen Metallfunde von Augsburg-Oberhausen, Materialhefte zur Bayerischen Vorgeschichte 28, 1973. (#445, #449)
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Gaius Julius Caesar - 08-22-2008
Daggers are for killing people, and the design of the pugio is very much in this vein.....although i would venture to shave with it perhaps....
Re: Amazing pugio blade - LVCIVS VVLPES - 08-22-2008
Christian
Thanks for the info,
PM send
Cheers
Luc
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Crispvs - 08-22-2008
Thank you Christian,
That is most helpful. Laud point gratefully given.
Crispvs
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Wander - 08-22-2008
I'd like to offer a possible alternate method of construction for this blade. The cross section shown by Lvcivs Vvlpes would certainly produce the result shown, but the narrow welds -- and the fact that the weld lines run completely through the blade -- suggest to me a potential risk of the blade breaking by delamination (along the visible lines somewhere).
A much stronger construction would be a 7-layer sandwich (assuming the blade is the same on the other side), with a central steel layer running the full width, and alternate iron and steel layers stacked on either side. The different metals would be exposed by grinding the blade to shape, much as with modern pattern-welded blades (which are usually more complex). As mentioned previously, the different layers would then be made to contrast by exposure to a mild acid, which would cause them to color differently. Modern pattern-welded smiths often like a combination of a high-carbon steel like 1095 with a stainless, because the high-carbon steel etches easily, but the stainless resists reaction.
The central full-width layer would make a much stronger construction. I'm not saying Lvcivs Vvlpvs is wrong -- just that the other construction is how I would do it, if I were making such a blade.
Re: Amazing pugio blade - caiusbeerquitius - 08-22-2008
@ Wander:
Yes, but the metallurgical analysis of the cross-section is quite clear - also for the Auerberg-dagger, aczually. Just look at the x-ray in the pic above.
Re: Amazing pugio blade - Wander - 08-22-2008
I won't argue with a photographic cross-section; that would be foolish. But that refers to the Haltern blade; this other one might or might not be constructed the same way. (That could be nondestructively determined if one had access to a high-powered X-ray machine.)
(I'll grant that scientific parsimony suggests that the known ancient construction is more likely than the known modern construction, though both are equally possible; again, no argument there.) But if I were making a modern replica, I'd opt for the stronger blade.