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+--- Thread: Muscled thorax fastenings (/showthread.php?tid=10813)
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Giannis K. Hoplite - 01-16-2008
Oh,Aitor,i was refering to the Greek muscled cuirass from that site I posted above. But your cuirass is of similar quality!!!! The two look much alike in the general shape.Perhaps inspire from the same artifact? Yes,I saw Gioi's pictures in the previous page,I was amazed! But you know,I never am full of pics. Do you have one with you wearing it?
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Giannis K. Hoplite - 01-16-2008
The myspace link must have been this one
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... d=94969200
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Dimitris - 01-17-2008
I am too busy indeed... I've even put the cuirass away to keep myself away from temptations! My free time is very limited but I'll come back to this project...sometime, probably in the summer. Sorry for all this and thanks for your patience
Great pictures by the way Giannis I'm sure they'll be of help!
Aitor, your cuirass is definitely one to be jealous of, i hope you manage to get it fixed after all.
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-19-2008
Dimitris,
I was just curious if you have made further progress on your armour. I finally have built up the courage to start my own. I should be getting my 16 gauge bronze sheet metal any day now and have gotten the tools to do the work. I am going to borrow your cardboard pattern if you do not mind.
I was just wondering if you had any lessons learned from your work that you have that may lead me away from making any bad mistakes. Bronze is not cheap and I really do not want to mess this up. Thanks.
I plan on using fine tooth (24-34 tpi) jig saw blades to cut out the shape. Then I plan to file down the edges to get a smooth edge. I bought a pair of pliers that I grinded the teeth off to use to start the fold of the metal back over on itself for the edges so that there won't be tooling marks. I have several weight ball peen, cross peen, and mallets to shape the muscles and the curveature itself. I have solid brass barrel hinges for the fastenings. I am buying solid copper or brass rivets for attaching the hinges. I am using a large sand bag and railroad rail to hammer the form out. Are there any other tools anyone can think of to help. I think I have what I need, but wanted to ask you guys first. Thanks.
I'll post progress pictures too if anyone is interested. I am going to finish this cuirass, then make the linen subarmour, then I am going to make bronze greeves to finish my Greek panalopy over the next couple months. I have a brass helmet instead of bronze, but I want to eventually get a manning bronze anyways. There is no way on this Earth that I think I can make a Corinthian helm.
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Giannis K. Hoplite - 03-19-2008
Well done! You have made all the good movements. Now beware though, there will be no excuse that you don't have the tools and matterial to start working
Is it bronze indeed the sheet that you bought for the cuirass? I can't find bronze here... Only brass sheet. Please post pics of different stages.
As for Dimitris,I suspect he'll be too busy at least until June.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-19-2008
Yes. It is a bronze 16 gauge 24" X 48" Bronze Sheet. It cost roughly $280 US Dollars. I am going to make the armor from it and then use scraps to test the elasticity of the 16 gauge to decide whether I think I can make greeves from another 16 gauge sheet or whether I want to back down to a 18 gauge sheet instead.
Don't worry. I am not one to procrastinate or take a long time on projects. To clarify, I take my time on the work, but I dedicate a large amount of time over a short duration. I would rather spend every waking minute for a few weeks than spending a little time every day over several months. I find that I get into a groove when I spend longer amounts of time focussed on the project.
Once the metal gets here I will dive in aggressively and knock this thing out fairly quickly. Not months, more like a few weeks. I can't promise it will be grand or anything, but we shall see. I will post pics as I go.
I am only nervous about some of the minor details. I do not think the major muscles will be that hard anymore. I have been pondering this project for a year or so and finally took the plunge.
I got the metal here....
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Look under metals in the raw materials section.
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Matthew Amt - 03-19-2008
Chris, I'd recommend doing some practice with scrap steel before pounding on your expensive bronze. Pull some old shelves out of dumpsters or trash piles and hammer away. You'll learn a lot about what tools and techniques will work best. For instance, I discovered that I can dish very well with a large ball-peen hammer, but it leaves the surface lumpy and requires a lot of plannishing. Using a bronze hemispherical bearing about 5" in diameter was a little less comfy in the hand, but worked just as fast and didn't make lumps. Aha! Lots of guys like to weld a shotput to a jackhammer bit for the ultimate dishing hammer.
Have fun, and Khairete,
Matthew
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-19-2008
Thanks. I will do that Matthew. I am actually quite excited to do this. It will finish the fourth of five historically accurate sets of armour from various time periods and my most patient, easy going 5 year old son (out of five children) has laid claim to it (of course after I pass on). He has a grin from ear to ear when he sees me working on his set so it kind of makes it extra special, and I am taking even more care to it.
I feel a little old to say my dad is helping, but I am getting his help before I start. He use to be a home builder and has done car body work too. He is suppose to be letting me borrow a few forms he uses for repairing car bodies to help keep it smooth.
Dimitris,
I am curious. How tall are you and how big is your chest? I had to go through 3 iterations to get my pattern to fit me well. I am sure it is because we are different sizes, but I was just curious. I am 6'0", 170 lbs and have a 42" chest. The pattern is ready to transfer to the metal. Too late to turn back now!
hock:
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Dimitris - 03-20-2008
Hi Chris, I hope everything goes well with your project! Please post progress pics!
I haven't done any progress with my armour and as Giannis pointed out I won't be working on it at all at least until June
Chris, are we different sizes! I am 5' 7", 132 lbs and have a 35" chest! I'm Greek and I'm small
!
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-20-2008
Well, I will try to do your ancestors proud. I just ordered two different size iron shot put balls to use as suggested by Matthew Amt. I also ordered my copper rivets and wire for the fasteners. Should have everything I need to start in about 8 days. I will post pics. Thanks for your help.s
While I wait for all the parts to be delivered, I am going to make my subarmor. I am going to buy all the linen today and the golden fringe for the flaps and start sewing tonight. Since I have my pattern finished, I am just going to make it slightly smaller so it will fit nicely under the armor. I am making four rows of linen flaps at the bottom and then one or two rows of tongue flaps. Then I will make three to four rows of shoulder flaps from linen.
This all leads me to my question. Would it be bad form to put belt type mountings on the top row of tongue pteruges. (can't ever spell that right!) I am thinking about putting something like one of the bottom figures on each of the tongues. I was hoping the face might be close enough to a gorgon face that it would pass. What do any of you think? I just want a little more flair to the subarmor this time.
I am really leaning towards the sun symbol. My set is Corinthos, but I want to be able to use it for a Spartan representation too.
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Giannis K. Hoplite - 03-21-2008
Hmm,you want early 4th century,right?
in a previous message in this thread I said
Quote:Personally I believe that the short,rounded pteryges shown in early statues are leather.Not necessarilly all the undergarment,as possibly the pteryges were attached to the cuirass.The later preryges are considerably longer,thinner and each pteryga overlaps the next one.This way you make thicker covering of the thighs and with les gaps.These also appear to have been much softer and were probably linen. That a thorax could have pteryges of different materials is justified by Xenophon in the "Horsemanship" It is worth to be noticed that he's not mentioning any ypothorakio,but only the pteryges!
It is strange that even the linothorakes in the middle 4th century had overlapping pteryges.
And some characteristic pteryges of greek cuirasses
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... hens3a.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... hens2a.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... hens1a.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... battle.jpg
Note that they are simple and short. I would mak them leather. Or if not,then like the linothorax pteryges. The longer,thinner ones,and also the shoulder guards are characteristic of later,Hellenistic armour.
Also,the fiiting like those you plan to put on the pteryges are even later than Hellenistic. We usually see them in Roman statues.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-21-2008
I agreed with you. I am making the "tongues" out of black leather.
As far as the straight flaps, I am making them rather short, but I may blend the styles just slightly. I may just not do the ornamentation with the suns. I really think it would look magnificent, but it would make it less historically accurate I guess.
I still think there was probably some variety in history though. Warriors were still individuals and I am sure, like modern men with our egos, they had individualized differences in their armour. I may just make a small leap and do the flaps the best way I think they look....NOT way outside of the representation you linked, but a blend.
Thanks for those links!
As far as my time period, you tell me. I think I lost myself in the detail of making the darn things and now I forgot what I intended to do when I started this set three years ago. Here is what I have so far! This is the aspis, helmet, falcata, and chiton. I also have custom made greek sandals now (I'll get a pic tonight) and a scabbard and baldric already made. I am finishing it with this subarmour, cuirass, and greeves. Where would you place it historically?
OH, and thanks for mentioning leaving off the shoulder flaps. I was so focussed on construction details that I missed the fact that the shoulder flaps are on everyone's Roman impressions.
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Giannis K. Hoplite - 03-21-2008
I guess soe individualisation is ok. After all i've seen some odd pteryges. For instance those ones look as if they have scales
![[Image: arm10.jpg]](http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118/kadoglou_gr/arm10.jpg)
Your set would fit to mid 5th century. The muscled thorax would have startd being used and the corinthian helmet would be in its late days. The kopis fits to a wide period and of course the hoplite shield to an even wider one. The muscled greaves also were at their best.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-21-2008
Thanks a lot. A laude for your help. I am really excited about finishing this set now. I put it off after the other three sets I have because I wanted to make it perfect in my mind, and I wanted to learn more before I underwent the work.
This is only the first pieces though. I intent to eventually get more Greek helmets and a linothorax too.
Update: I finished the upper portion of the underarmour in 100% black linen. I left 2" open on the bottom to sew in 5 rows of flaps that I will begin after Easter. It isn't as thick as my Roman subarmalis, but I wanted it a little less bulky since the cuirass is going to fit fairly snug. The bronze came today so I will also start the armour next week.
Re: Muscled thorax fastenings - Chris B - 03-28-2008
Okay. Here are the first progress photos. I have finished the linen subarmour in 6 days. I will start the Bronze Cuirass this weekend. I am also attaching pics of the shoes I promised on the Greek Shoe Thread.
I made 90 individual linen flaps in two long rows, two short rows, and then a leather row of tongue pteryges. They are thicker than they appear in the picture. I tried it on over modern clothing and then the chiton's bagginess separated the flaps some and caused them to twist a bit like in the statues I guess when I finally tried it on over period clothing. I think the armour will help pin it in some and keep the flaps from moving as much.
Added Note:
I did experiment with one thing and ripped it back apart. I put one small circular stitch in each of the pteryges on the longer row, stiching it only to the pteryge to the immediate right and left of itself a few inches from the fringe to keep them from pulling completely apart. It makes it look more uniform. I only left the overlapping flaps on the sides unstitched to allow them to fall correctly where the subarmour meets on the sides. I ripped them apart because it took little effort to do, and I wanted to see how they would fall if left unstitched. I think I am going to go back and redo it. That way the chiton cannot physically push through between the flaps. There are two overlapping rows of long flaps, but it is hard to see in the pic. If I restitch them, they would look solid like the upper layers.
I may also add another layer or two to the long flaps, but I still think the chiton will "part the sea" and separate some of the flaps. You don't have that problem with heavier leather as seen in my pics of my Roman subarmalis, but I didn't want to use leather on this one. I think this may just be a problem of ANY flaps being the length to hit the upper thighs. That additional circumference around the legs has to be displaced somewhere, right? What are any of your thoughts?
I am considering (1) adding more flaps stitched into the subarmour slightly higher than the previous stitch line on the back, (2) adding one layer of longer leather flaps to the back to hold down the chiton better, (3) leaving it alone since my movement will cause any number of layers to twist and bind anyways, or (4) wearing a black chiton so it isn't as noticeable.