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+--- Thread: Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt (/showthread.php?tid=23099)
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Urselius - 09-07-2013
Also the forces of Zenobia and Aurelian's general Probus (the future emperor) were active in Egypt in the 270s. There would have been many units transiting the area.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 09-07-2013
Quote:Magister Militum Flavius Aetius post=343844 Wrote:Beatty Papyrii - that's it.
The Beatty papyrii list units of II Traiana, plus Ala I Hiberorum and a unit of equites sagittarii. No foederati mentioned, and the word itself probably wasn't in use this early.
The ND lists I Hiberorum plus a lot of other old-style auxiliary units with more recent ethnic titles - Franks included. They were possibly sent there as dedicitii or laeti in the late 3rd /early 4th centuries. Oxyrhynchus papryus 41.2591 has salarati peregrini (foreign mercenaries) serving in a unit of peregrini cataphractarii in AD267. So there were 'barbarian' groups under arms in Egypt at that point.
However, with the similarity of this armour to much earlier native styles, we'd be better off assuming that it originated in Egypt and was adopted by Roman troops, rather than being brought from elsewhere. (Although... any chance those peregrini cataphractarii might have been using leather horse armour?...)
That's what I was going to say. Leather and quilted Armor was very popular amongst Byzantine Kataphraktoi.
Leather Scale would be very likely for a 3rd century cataphract, as most cataphracts in Roman service came from the various Alanic groups, who used leather and bone lamellar like the later huns.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Dan Howard - 09-08-2013
Quote:It doesnt make sense for a person to wear 7cm x 4.6cm scales. .So which Karanis scales were 7cm x 4.6cm ?
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - markusaurelius - 09-08-2013
Quote:Markus Montanvs wrote: It doesnt make sense for a person to wear 7cm x 4.6cm scales. .
So which Karanis scales were 7cm x 4.6cm ?
Some scales from Dura are that size. You said that the scale size didn't dictate whether it was for horse armor or not, I disagreed and showed the large scales from Dura as an example of scales that were clearly meant for a horse. The Karanis scales are quite a bit bigger than the average small scale for Roman armor, so that added to my suspicion that they were for a horse.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - daryush - 09-08-2013
Quote:Quote:The scale size doesn't tell us that it is horse armour
It doesnt make sense for a person to wear 7cm x 4.6cm scales. They would functionally be useless. The only clear conclusion is that they were meant for a horse IMO.
Why would they be useless? Cuirasses from Central Asia often have large scales in this sort of region.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - caiusbeerquitius - 09-09-2013
Quote:Beatty Papyrii - that's it.Isn´t plural of "papyrus" "papyri"?
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Nathan Ross - 09-09-2013
Quote:Quote:Beatty Papyrii - that's it.Isn´t plural of "papyrus" "papyri"?
You're quite right. My fault! (I think...)
Although it's a fairly common mistake :dizzy:
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 09-09-2013
It's a typo. And sort of a habit. Alemanni got misspelled Alemannii in RTW and i've been stupid with this habit ever since.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-03-2014
Quote:most cataphracts in Roman service came from the various Alanic groupsWhere do you get that from, Evan?
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-03-2014
Well not specifically Alanic, I meant Sarmatian. Beginning under the Emperor Hadrian the Sarmatians entered Roman service, and the overwhelming majority of them were Cataphracts, and they helped introduce that style of horseman into the Roman Army.
Alanus or someone could tell you the exact tombstones and inscriptions and whatnot, I don't have the references on me.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-03-2014
Quote:Beginning under the Emperor Hadrian the Sarmatians entered Roman service, and the overwhelming majority of them were Cataphracts, and they helped introduce that style of horseman into the Roman Army.I would really like to have some authority for that.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-03-2014
Quote:I would really like to have some authority for that.
Couple of tombstones from around the Empire, some other inscriptions, all mentioning units of Auxilia or Gentilium Sarmatorum Catafractorum and stuff. I would have to find them all but I honestly don't know where to get images of them.
Not all of them are tombstones, we discussed this earlier in fact but I can't find the thread.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-03-2014
Can't find anything relevant on EDCS.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-03-2014
I stand corrected, there is no evidence of them being Sarmatian:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/17-roman-military-history-a-archaeology/322134-roman-use-of-the-contus.html?start=15#346975
However, I would imagine the practice was adopted from the Sarmatians and Parthians.
Roman Leather Lamellae Scales from Karanis, Egypt - Renatus - 02-03-2014
Quote:Oxyrhynchus papryus 41.2591 has salarati peregrini (foreign mercenaries) serving in a unit of peregrini cataphractarii in AD267.Nathan, are we thinking of the same papyrus? I am looking at P.Oxy. 41.2951, a document dealing with the sale of a female slave, dated 26th May 267. The vendor is Marias Barsimes, Salaratus of a numerus cataphractorum, the son of Barsimes Bassus, decurion in the same unit. The document was written by Rufus Abedsai, optio of numerus Salaratorum Peregrinorum because Marias Barsimes was illiterate. I do not see a reference to a unit of peregrini cataphractarii.