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+--- Thread: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. (/showthread.php?tid=13908)
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - jvrjenivs - 11-04-2008
Quote:Still, nice work. And wwhy does he have to be an ordinary miles?
He could well have been an nco. He was at least a craftsman, going by his tool bag.
I don't know the age this man had, but we know of many fabricae runned by veterans. This would for instance explain the combination of tools and cingulum militare and gladius. Of course he could be an NCO, but he doesn't have to be one. How long did we mention the 'Sword of tiberius' as a 'very special high commander ornate scabbart and sword' which seems to be a very common type of decoration.
Modern value doesn't reflect ancient value straight forward. Okay, materials, like silver where also expensive, back then, but labor wasn't.
Again, you want to invest in something. Soldiers (and Auxilia too) were very presumptuous! So I really don't see why this couldn't be a normal soldier. I would say his tools back tells us much more on what he was than his ornate belt!
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - caiusbeerquitius - 11-04-2008
Maybe one of our Italian friends has access to the excavation publications?
I only have E. Künzl´s article "Cingula di Ercolano E Pompeji"
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - Tita Iuventia Martia - 11-04-2008
Salvete fraters,
M. Demetrius: The pillage? It seems to be a good idea ;-) )
Emanuel: nice photos, thank you!
I also think that this luxurious belt could have been in possesion of an ordinary soldier. He could have invested in his own equipment - I mean generaly in pugio or military belt. As far as I know, a belt and a pugio dager were soldier's possession. Am I right? I have read that legionaries often spent too much money on embellishment of their personal equipment - why not? :-) ) Romans were really proud that they are in the army and balteus militare was the insignia of his membership.
vale and regards
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - Tita Iuventia Martia - 11-04-2008
I also would like to say, that everything in this web pages is wonderfull but really expensive. This stuff is great for museums, for instance but not for reenactors, because of prices...
vale and regards from Prague
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-04-2008
Well, the eskeleton is published here as number 26:
I fuggiaschi di Ercolano: paleobiologia delle vittime dell'eruzione vesuviana del 79 d.C. - Luigi Capasso, 2001, L'ERMA di BRETSCHNEIDER ed., 1089 pagine - ISBN 888265141X, 9788882651411
The autor says that the belt was made in bronce, citing the originall description. Probably the description was made with the pieces unrestored, so probably the silver were covered by the brass/bronze corrossion products (green oxid). I have seen bigger resolution pictures, and is quite clear the belt was made of bronce plates covered with thin embossed/minted silver plate.
In fact, other italian belts was made in that way, as the Porto Novo ones.
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-04-2008
The book it's online:
http://www.google.es/books?id=gzLTt_K7- ... +cinturone
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - Doc - 11-04-2008
Cesar,
Thanks for the information, The question I have is does it mention in the article on the skeleton anything about the belt. I looked through it and it is quite long but I did not see the belt description.
Christian, would you have a copy of that article. I would really like to read through it.
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - Gaius Julius Caesar - 11-04-2008
The same here to the article, (this belt has a 'moth-to-light' effect on me), please!
@Cesar, do you have these higher resolution pictures, and would it be possible to see them, please?
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - PhilusEstilius - 11-04-2008
I think if anyone looks at the pics' that have been posted by Emmanuel, it becomes very evident that the belt frog showing Diana Lucifera has a backing to it and is wrapped in silver (in the lower pic that is). Then when we look at the upper pic where the silver has been lost there is some evidence of what may be also backing to that plate. I would also now agree that the boaders of the plates are separate to the plates, so in a way my repousse' reproductions some years ago were not too far out.
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-04-2008
Byron, you can see here:
http://www.engramma.it/Joomla/images/65 ... ngulum.gif
http://download.kataweb.it/mediaweb/ima ... ngulum.jpg
http://velvet.repubblica.it/fotovideo/a ... 780238/2/5
Doc, the only description is in the first page. Translated:
(...) the sword and the iron objects, fixed to a bronze belt (...)
At the pictures, as Brian notes, is clear that the stamped circular motif is framed by an classical motif: eggs and darts. It's an architectonical wide used motif in friezes, columns, etc. You can see in the right of the pictures posted by me how the frames are independient of the silver plate.
In the top left, where a part of the silver sheet is missing, you can see another "layer" or plate.
The quality of the figures depicted in the central motif, and the fact all are identical proves that there are minted. I want to mean there are made with a mint, as a coin. Repousse, if you prefer, but using a stamp or mint over a semisolid/semirigid surface, as lead, leather, sand, etc...
The fact, noted by Brian, of a "rotation" in the vertical axis of the circular motif is typical of an use of a stamp or mint.
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-04-2008
The use of thin metal plates impresed/minted are attested too in Porto Vecchio shipwreck (also knows as Porto Novo).
The use of independient frames soldered to the body of the plate are wide used in belt plates but frequently only in the sides, to cover the tubular sides of the plate.
I have the catalog of Vindonissa, and is curious to see the section of the beltplates, because shows how the plates are made. A lot of them are made of very thin sheet embossed, with the sides rolled. But some of them are made casted, like the pieces of actual well-know german artisans.
If somebody wants to recreate a particular belt, was better to use the exact way to made it as the original. Sometimes is easier too!
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - Doc - 11-05-2008
Cesar,
Thanks for all the information. Speaking of embossed belt plates, are you suggesting that the belt plate with the wolf and twins or emperor/cornucopia was also made of thin embossed sheet brass where the sides are rolled over. The reason I ask is because these belt plates have the same ball type structure at the sides that the pompeii plates have.
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - caiusbeerquitius - 11-05-2008
@Doc: Yes, these plates were not cast.
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-05-2008
The wolf and twins were not cast, as Tarquitius says. Some pieces have the extrems rolled, but there are some exemplars without the lateral tubes.
If you see carefully the plate, you can see small dots, like punctim in the parts surrounding the wolf and the twins. Probably there are used to give more depth to the embossing, to make a "shadow" zone that helps to made more evident the figures of the scene.
http://romancoins.info/Vindonissa-0610%20(4 ).JPG
Re: Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD. - Steve H - 11-05-2008
Truly a beautiful belt- any man would be proud of it.
One day..........